HHKB2 vs Realforce 88U vs CM Novatouch

Muirium · 05 Feb 2015, 02:04

Hypersphere wrote: I know that some will again accuse me of sacrilege, but my current ranking is as follows:

KBP V60 Matias Quiet ~ KBP V60 Matias Click > HHKB Pro 2 ~ RF 87ub 55g > IBM XT > RF 87ub 45g > HHKB Pro 2 Type-S >>> Novatouch

From my point of view, the only downside to Matias-switch keyboards is the lack of ready availability of dye-sub PBT keycaps for them. Otherwise, the switches themselves are superb!

Sacrilege is when you do something, objective. Opinions are subjective, and you're free to think whatever you like. Even if it's clearly very wrong!

I see no Kishsaver in your ranking. Didn't you get it up and running yet? And where's the SSK? Those are the two boards my HHKB is really up against.

Hypersphere · 05 Feb 2015, 02:20

Yes, the SSK does indeed deserve to be in the ranking. It has just been out of my rotation for a while. I didn't include the Kishy at this time, because I don't have it up and running. I want to do some practice surgeries on more plentiful boards first and be sure I can do the best possible job on the F62 restoration and conversion. I would probably insert the SSK somewhere in the middle. It gets very high marks for form factor/aesthetics and not quite so high for sound and feel.

cookie · 05 Feb 2015, 11:19

I'd love to try matias switches, but the lack of propper caps is holding me back

Concidering that I've tried several alps switches, which matias basically are, I felt wobble is very noticeable. Black alps are better than their reputation, if you remove the metal plate which creates the tactile feedback they are even better!
The Matias Quied switches are very promising therefore

Anyway, I recently got back into cherry land. I finished my FaceU replica which I bougt from matt3o, It is actually nice to have a 60% cherry board to type on it from time to time. But I have no Idea why MX Reds feel so scratchy to me?
I will try to lube them and I need propper caps and the lightest springs possible, this is where cherry shines. The modding potential is enormous, you can do a ton to your beloved cherry board.

Going back to my HHKB was like: "Christ, this is still the real thing!"

Still the HHKB is undoubtedly the King if you are looking for an overall awesome product and the Topre switch goodness!
If you like to modify your Keyboard, stick to your Cherry boards, nothig beats them if you want aftermarked parts!

I would't concider a Novatouch even though it is the most "moddabble" topre board available. If you wan't the real topre feeling you have to buy the real thing (HHKB, Realforce), the Leopold FC660c seems also very nice!

Spikebolt · 05 Feb 2015, 11:32

cookie wrote: But I have no Idea why MX Reds feel so scratchy to me?

One of the reasons I'm so anxious to try out Topre is quotes like these. I absolutely love my Filco w/ Reds. They feel really smooth, they weight is great, I just love them. I wonder how Topres can feel smoother, I wonder how good the feeling must be in order to make reds seem scratchy.

Managed to buy the 88UB after all, hopefully Noobie can ship it ASAP and I'll find out what the fuss is all about

cookie · 05 Feb 2015, 11:41

The 88U is definately a nice choice!
I have no doubts that you will be very happy with it, but you have to give it a bit, especially if you like reds! You first have to get used to the tactile bumb caused by the domes. Try it out yourself, go back after a while and try the MX Red board, you will definately notice some scratchyness! But I think this a bit of lube will fix this

Spikebolt · 05 Feb 2015, 11:56

I'm already used to tactile bumps since the board I use at work has ergo-clears. Now that's a scratchy switch!

Muirium · 05 Feb 2015, 13:30

Topre's nothing like ergo-clears! Tactile and clicky MX switches have a "tactile bump" that feels like a trap door. Topre is smoothly tactile. That's the best thing about it. It's like IBM's ancient beamspring that way, which was designed to feel like a typewriter, where you can feel the hammers swing as you press keys.

Very few switches have this glorious smooth tactile force curve. Once you get used to it, the bumps and levers of other switches feel very crufty indeed!

The thing to look out for when trying Topre for the first time is the "meh" factor. They're subtle. Some of my other favourite switches, like so many of IBM's, will smack you upside the head on first meeting! But Topre's the opposite. You'll almost certainly go "huh?" It's one that grows on you. Give it a few days exclusive use to see what I mean.

As for scratchy reds: don't do this if you want to keep loving them!

Spoiler:

Spikebolt · 05 Feb 2015, 13:34

Muirium wrote: Topre's nothing like ergo-clears! Tactile and clicky MX switches have a "tactile bump" that feels like a trap door.

This is a pretty accurate description about my feelings with clear switches. If feels exactly like a trap door, it's kinda awkward.

Good warning, though, I'll try to de-hype it a bit hehe

Muirium · 05 Feb 2015, 13:38

There's plenty of good things about a Realforce you will appreciate on first sight for sure. The caps are awesome. Their profile is distinctive and very sweet. And Topre doesn't mess around with build quality either.

I'm guessing 55g Topre has so many fans because it's like 45g Topre, only more so!

Hypersphere · 05 Feb 2015, 14:53

To me, the tactile bump of Cherry mx switches feels like what it is: a bump grafted onto the switch stem. One of the problems I have with Cherry mx is that the force required to continue depressing the switch after the bump continues to increase. This is particularly noticeable in mx clears, which have the highest slope of any Cherry switch in this region of the force-displacement curve. Some people like the increasing force because it helps train them not to bottom out. In my case, I like to bottom out every keystroke and so mx clears are not for me.

Matias switches have become my new favorites. Both the Matias Click and Matias Quiet switches have excellent tactility. People talk about the wobble, but I don't notice it. The Matias Quiet switches live up to their name, and the silencing is uniform across the board. This is not the case with my HHKB Type-S; in fact, some keys such as the left shift seem not to have been silenced at all.

I still like Topre switches. In particular, they really come into their own in the RF 87u 55g. The key action feels a bit like that on a real piano, and the force required to continue past the tactile release decreases, leading to a natural follow-through. Perfect for those who like to bottom out.

Muirium · 05 Feb 2015, 15:37

Ever had a single unit (unstabilised) Type-S switch that seems less damped? Stabs are another source of sound entirely. The fact the dampers on Topre Type-S are significantly larger than those on damped Alps or Matias suggests to me they should be more consistent and reliable, not less.

Hypersphere · 05 Feb 2015, 16:01

Muirium wrote: Ever had a single unit (unstabilised) Type-S switch that seems less damped? Stabs are another source of sound entirely. The fact the dampers on Topre Type-S are significantly larger than those on damped Alps or Matias suggests to me they should be more consistent and reliable, not less.

Not to get ahead of your forthcoming review, but do you find any of the keys on your Type-S to lack silencing? In particular, how do you find the left shift key? On my Type-S, the keys that are a bit noisier than expected include the following: A, Return, Left Shift, Fn, Left Command, and Spacebar. By far the most noticeable is the Left Shift, which sounds exactly the same as the Left Shift on my standard HHKB Pro 2.

Muirium · 05 Feb 2015, 16:03

I'll investigate. The Fn and left Command you mention are unstabilised, so should really be silent.

[MONTAGE OF TEA MAKING]

Now I'm back on the HHKB. My Fn key is just as quiet as the rest. Left Command is maybe a bit noisier than right Command but nothing I've noticed in use, and I use Left Command a whole lot. The spacebar's definitely louder than most keys, though, stabilised as it is.

The one that stands out is left Shift, which is louder still. Similar story to yours there. A different quality of sound, it doesn't seem like a stabiliser's noise, but more as I remember most keys from a regular HHKB. Left Shift of all the keys does seem the least damped. Compared to Return, which is a similar size and stabilised too, left Shift is an outlier. Annoying, as Return is very nicely damped indeed!

Overall, though, the alphas are damped very nicely which is what matters most in routine typing, and this is easily among the quietest of my boards, to my ear at least. I'll let the big microphone at it for an objective test, of course. It feels somewhere close my damped Alps boards, but with a key-feel I much prefer.

Findecanor · 05 Feb 2015, 20:20

I didn't find that the Novatouch rattles or that the stroke is different from 45g Realforce. The only key that I find different-sounding from my variable Realforce is the Space Bar, which has a bit louder "thunk". But then I have not tried it with anything but the stock keycaps.

I prefer my variable Realforce to the uniform-force Novatouch because of the outlier keys being lighter, but overall I prefer lubed Cherry MX Clears more than either.

Muirium · 05 Feb 2015, 20:25

Got a recording of yours in action? Every NovaTouch I've ever heard of was rattly and noisy, and the issue was even discussed and recognised during its development, albeit not fixed.

cookie · 06 Feb 2015, 11:14

I recently noticed how annoying the increased force is when you press an MX switch! That is something I've never felt before. I haven't typed on a cherry MX board for almost 2 years, going back to them is quite interesting

I must say that I don't like stock non silenced topre switches so much. They really start to shine if you damper them propperly! Type-S HHKBs are known for a certain whistle sound, I never owned or typed on one therefore I can't tell how bad it is. I've found several videos on YT where you can definately notice the sound!

Spikebolt · 16 Feb 2015, 15:46

Got the Realforce 88UB from noobie94 today in a really amazing package. The keyboard is in mint condition, not even a bit of shine in the spacebar.

First impressions is that the keyboard is great. I'm really loving this topre feel, it feels like I hoped clears (and then ergo-clears) would feel. It could be even lighter but it's fine. The bump feels right and smooth, subtle but noticeable (unlike browns).

I'll be writing a review sometime next week after I fully experience it

eldorange · 16 Feb 2015, 16:12

How about Leopold fc660c?

zts · 16 Feb 2015, 19:05

Findecanor wrote: ... The only key that I find different-sounding from my variable Realforce is the Space Bar, which has a bit louder "thunk". ...

I put the included O-rings on the spacebar -- stacked two in the middle and one on each side. At least to me it seems to resolve the spacebar noise.

Muirium · 16 Feb 2015, 23:56

I tried a lot of o-ring acrobatics with mine. Nothing really fixed it. The rattle comes from inside. The only real progress I've made with that is with damping rings.

Speaking of which, Cookie sent me samples of his latest recipe. I need to clear my desk and get them in!

Hypersphere · 17 Feb 2015, 00:31

cookie wrote: I recently noticed how annoying the increased force is when you press an MX switch! That is something I've never felt before. I haven't typed on a cherry MX board for almost 2 years, going back to them is quite interesting

I must say that I don't like stock non silenced topre switches so much. They really start to shine if you damper them propperly! Type-S HHKBs are known for a certain whistle sound, I never owned or typed on one therefore I can't tell how bad it is. I've found several videos on YT where you can definately notice the sound!

Yes, all Cherry mx have this characteristic of increasing force all the way to bottoming out. It is especially pronounced in mx clears.

My Type-S had some whistling keys. This vanished after an extensive mod whereby I transferred the Type-S sliders to a black HHKB case along with 55g domes from an RF. I also lubed the stabilizers and slider rails; I suspect this is what stopped the whistling. In any event, this modded Type-S is silent indeed.

zts · 17 Feb 2015, 00:35

Muirium wrote: I tried a lot of o-ring acrobatics with mine. Nothing really fixed it. The rattle comes from inside. The only real progress I've made with that is with damping rings.

Speaking of which, Cookie sent me samples of his latest recipe. I need to clear my desk and get them in!

I got mine to work reasonably OK. There is still some rattle but it's a bit quieter. I put in some lower quality PBTs for alphanumerics with included O-rings. It's OK but the feel is not yet close to FC660C or cheaper Type Heaven for that matter that have all 45s as Novatouch.

Muirium · 17 Feb 2015, 00:47

Hypersphere wrote: In any event, this modded Type-S is silent indeed.

What needed done to silence the left Shift key? Lube? Incorrectly installed damper? Left Shift isn't horrible on mine — It thocks! — but it's easily the loudest key besides the spacebar.

The NovaTouch meanwhile… whole other story. One that's still ongoing.

Hypersphere · 17 Feb 2015, 01:03

Muirium wrote:
Hypersphere wrote: In any event, this modded Type-S is silent indeed.
What needed done to silence the left Shift key? Lube? Incorrectly installed damper? Left Shift isn't horrible on mine — It thocks! — but it's easily the loudest key besides the spacebar.

The NovaTouch meanwhile… whole other story. One that's still ongoing.

Well, I'm typing on my black Type-S now. I almost never use the Left Shift, but now you mention it, my Left Shift is still the loudest key on the board. I think it is not as loud as it was originally and it thocks nicely. The next loudest is probably the Return key, but here again, I think it is not as loud as it was originally. Hard to say what accounts for the overall noise reduction, as I have lubed the slider rails and stabilizer wires, and I have added some silicone foam inside the case. There has been a big improvement to the spacebar -- I think the main thing here was adding some rubber pads to lessen the downstroke noise.

Haven't touched my Novatouch in a while. I've thought of selling it, but it is one of my few remaining platforms for showing off some beautiful Cherry-compatible keycap sets.

cookie · 17 Feb 2015, 10:59

I've punched out 60 foam-rings with my bear thumb yesterday, disassambled my HHKB 3 times to make a comparison video between a stock, silicone rings and foam rings silenced HHKB...

The benefits of several hours of work are a gigantic bruise on my thumb and 3 videos wehre you cant tell the difference (but believe me, a difference is definately there) :/
I don't even dare to upload them, not to blame myself!

Man this whole thing is pissing me off slightly...

Muirium · 17 Feb 2015, 11:10

You must have a sharp thumb!

The key to videos is the sound. You're better off with a good external microphone hooked up to your camera, so you can get it real close to the source.

cookie · 17 Feb 2015, 11:27

Haha I had a punch, no worries. But I used my thumb to press it :/

I connected my headset microphone to the camera but you can't tell a difference!

The keys have less rattle, the thock is nicer and deeper and the travel back impact is nicely dampered.
The whole board feels more solid... It is so painfull that the video didn't capture it propperly!