Double shot PBT?

[RadikulRAM]

Hello,

Last time I enquired (a few months ago), I came to the conclusion that double shot PBT's aren't made because the plastic is brittle. I thought ABS was the only ones made, then I came across this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/vortex-bac ... bt-keycaps

Does anyone have these? From the pictures it looks like the double shotting is small and probably wont have any noticeable effect?

[fohat]

There have been some minor successes in this area.

I am not a Cherry lover, so you should ask someone else.

[zts]

Hello,

Last time I enquired (a few months ago), I came to the conclusion that double shot PBT's aren't made because the plastic is brittle. I thought ABS was the only ones made, then I came across this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/vortex-bac ... bt-keycaps

Does anyone have these? From the pictures it looks like the double shotting is small and probably wont have any noticeable effect?

I know that doubleshot PBT's are available in Deck Francium Pro and Deck Hassium Pro keyboards -- it enables LED backlight on them (not as good backlight as with ABS but it's there).

Vortex also made some (PBT+POM Double Shot Keycap Set):
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/ind ... ail&p=1003

[Findecanor]

Signature Plastics has only made arrow keys and Ctrl and Alt keys in double-shot PBT.

[matt3o]

Vortex last year perfected the manufacturing process required to double shot PBT and released quite some fine keycap sets.

The first attempts were not great, but now they are fine and well worth their price.

Some examples:

http://keypuller.com/bi-color-pbt-doubl ... by-vortex/

http://keypuller.com/pbt-double-shot-by-vortex/

http://keypuller.com/pbt-pom-double-shot-by-vortex/

[Stabilized]

I believe that Tai Hao are also releasing a number of sets that are made from double shot PBT.
Image:

Spoiler:

One advantage of the Vortex sets (I have one) is the thickness is pretty good (compared to the Tai Hao ones) and the texture is fine but pronounced; like Matt3o says, I would definitely recommend them for the price (if you like the font).

[XMIT]

Yes. I bought two sets of these - the last two from this US based reseller, sorry - maybe ask if more are coming? I believe MechKB out of Australia sells them as well, as do many others (may help to speak Chinese).
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/ind ... tail&p=774

These are thick PBT double shot keys, white legends on a black background. They're fantastic, and work well with a CM Novatouch as well as Costar clone Cherry keyboards such as the WASD v2. Here they are on my keyboard:

DSC_2929.jpg (948.14 KiB) Viewed 14915 times

Double shot PBT caps are tricky to make. On my sets a couple of keys have very slightly raised legends (you can feel them if you know which key and where and go look for it) and some legends are slightly thicker or thinner than others. Also it is somewhat harder to get extremely crisp glyphs with tight (small radius) corners so e.g. the Menu key's symbol is not as crisp as it should be.

I find these keys to be delightful.

[RadikulRAM]

Looks really nice, thanks for the replies!

Are there any DSA profile PBT double shots? With backlighting?

[Muirium]

I purchased some PBT DSA's and at least 30% of the caps were warped and I had major gaps and uneven lines between the keys. I often see this when people post pictures of their new keycaps and I can tell instantly that the caps are from SP. The worst thing about the caps were the thickness and weight. Replacing the stock Poker II keycaps with the DSA's felt like typing on a cheap mechanical Logitech keyboard with ABS caps. I find the business model of SP very disappointing, even though they have nice people working for customer service. The product and service could have been amazing, but in stead they have poor quality in terms of thin low weight caps and inconsistent products.

All too believable. And physically extruding legends on the caps Jsoltren mentioned? That's not a good sign at all!

Everything's just great when you choose to ignore all its defects.

[matt3o]

Looks really nice, thanks for the replies!

Are there any DSA profile PBT double shots? With backlighting?

now you are really asking too much

[RadikulRAM]

I purchased some PBT DSA's and at least 30% of the caps were warped and I had major gaps and uneven lines between the keys. I often see this when people post pictures of their new keycaps and I can tell instantly that the caps are from SP. The worst thing about the caps were the thickness and weight. Replacing the stock Poker II keycaps with the DSA's felt like typing on a cheap mechanical Logitech keyboard with ABS caps. I find the business model of SP very disappointing, even though they have nice people working for customer service. The product and service could have been amazing, but in stead they have poor quality in terms of thin low weight caps and inconsistent products.

All too believable. And physically extruding legends on the caps Jsoltren mentioned? That's not a good sign at all!

Everything's just great when you choose to ignore all its defects.

So SP's PBT DSA's aren't uniform? Isn't their ABS DSA's also a bit wonky?

I wonder if any other company has made PBT DSA's.

[RadikulRAM]

Looks really nice, thanks for the replies!

Are there any DSA profile PBT double shots? With backlighting?

now you are really asking too much

Yeah haha, I figured.

[XMIT]

Vortex also made PBT+POM OEM profile double shots, but not DSA or Cherry profile. The OP cited these keys. Note that they are not great backlit keys because, on the num row, only the top glyph gets highlighted with usual LED positioning. I have a set of these as well but they are not currently in service. Waiting to find just the right backlit keyboard - maybe I'll make my own.

As for the raised legends - it really is not a problem for me, I don't notice it during routine typing (and I spend far too much time in front of a keyboard.) But, if you really go hunting for it, on some keys you can feel it. It is not *nearly* as bad as laser etched legends or decal legends and there are far more of those in the world.

The way I see it, supporting the technology creates demand that justifies continued innovation and continued improvement. I'm completely satisfied with my key caps.

Though, I am looking forward to doing an apples to apples comparison with Round 5a, hopefully this year.

(SP's current SA tooling does not support PBT - I already asked!)

[XMIT]

Here are some better key cap photos. Since I replaced the ESC with a red SP SA ABS doubleshot, the old Esc key is within reach. 1.46mm thick on my calipers.

DSC_2992.JPG (401.08 KiB) Viewed 14850 times

DSC_2993.JPG (256.14 KiB) Viewed 14850 times

DSC_2994.JPG (288.9 KiB) Viewed 14850 times

DSC_2995.JPG (221.98 KiB) Viewed 14850 times

DSC_2996.JPG (836.84 KiB) Viewed 14850 times

(Photography suggestions welcome - this is a Nikon D7000 DSLR using the built in flash indoors, perhaps a narrower aperture would have been better for these. These are potato pics for this camera compared to its capabilities.)

[andrewjoy]

Does anyone do spherical PBT ? I want it as thick as a beam spring cap!

[RadikulRAM]

Does anyone do spherical PBT ? I want it as thick as a beam spring cap!

As do I.

Thanks for the pictures jsoltren!

[Mal-2]

(Photography suggestions welcome - this is a Nikon D7000 DSLR using the built in flash indoors, perhaps a narrower aperture would have been better for these. These are potato pics for this camera compared to its capabilities.)

Try manual focus on the close shots. You may screw it up, but you'll learn. Your camera's autofocus won't. Short of that, perhaps take for granted that with that lens, at that focal length, your camera has a tendency to rear-focus. Frame the shot, push the shutter button halfway to lock in the focus, back up slightly, and take the shot. Stopping down will help disguise the issue, but this is a case where you really want to have just enough depth of field to cover the area of interest and nothing else.

Or, if you were using a zoom lens, switch to a prime lens. since they can't zoom, you needn't worry about the depth of focus shifting across the zoom range. Either it will be correct (yay) or it won't and you'll have to compensate -- but at least you'll know exactly how much.

This is all assuming you weren't bumping against the close focus limit of the lens. If that was the problem, well then, don't do that. (Get a close-up lens to screw on the front if you want a cheap fix.)

[XMIT]

Thanks Mal-2,

Yes, this was with a 35mm prime lens (half-frame DSLR, about equal to a 50mm full-frame prime lens IIRC).

Indeed, this was all on auto focus, and was right up at the close focus limit. (These images are cropped.) Perhaps a macro lens is in my future. I'll add it to my wish list. I'll experiment with the zoom lens as well.

"Learn by doing!"

[Muirium]

Macro photography is a whole realm of its own. A good way to get a taste (so I've heard) is to pick up an extender tube and put it behind your longest lens. They essentially make any lens myopic: you can't focus out to infinity any more, and you might be stuck in manual too. But you can suddenly get so close!

Or a real macro. That's what I did. Canon and Nikon both have excellent ones. Go for a prime, none of that "macro" nonsense Tamron and the rest claim for their lenses which aren't!

[RadikulRAM]

I'm trying to decide on a keycap set, and I can't decide! This is killing me, now I understand why some of you have so many keycaps...

EDIT:

Out of curiosity, do you guys have any red ABS DSA SP caps aswell as whites? Could you take a picture of them together for me please?

I'm thinking of white alpha's with red modifiers, or the other way around. Red is my fave. colour, and the colour of the Round5 group buy reds is really testing my discipline.

[Muirium]

Exactly!

[RadikulRAM]

Ok I've mocked up a few, the third row is the design I'll probably be sticking with.

The last row with the three left hand pieces, are the colour schemes I've mocked up as a rough idea.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 4b440a52f3

[Mal-2]

Thanks Mal-2,

Yes, this was with a 35mm prime lens (half-frame DSLR, about equal to a 50mm full-frame prime lens IIRC).

Indeed, this was all on auto focus, and was right up at the close focus limit. (These images are cropped.) Perhaps a macro lens is in my future. I'll add it to my wish list. I'll experiment with the zoom lens as well.

"Learn by doing!"

What's the filter diameter for that lens? If I had to take a guess (and I do to do any searches), I'd guess 49 mm, but 52 is another definite possibility.

http://www.adorama.com/HY49CUSM.html?adver=new&

As I said, it's a cheap solution. You likely will get just a hint of green/purple fringing if you look really really hard. The good sides are that they're cheap, they will fit multiple lenses, they won't screw up the automatic functions of the camera (as an extension tube often does), and they're small enough to always have in your camera bag. The bad side is that the optical performance is not up to that of a dedicated macro lens or an extension tube. An extension tube will only cost you some light-gathering power, not a significant amount of resolving power.

[Stabilized]

Not sure I want to post my pictures in a thread where the pictures will be appraised!
But here's a couple of pictures I got of my set of Vortex DS PBT:
Shot of the underside:
Shot of the height difference between the top row and the one under it: