Want criticism on Keyboard design

[RadikulRAM]

Hello,
I'm looking to create a two piece keyboard. The bottom group is the one I want to go for:
http://imgur.com/u3fLxA5 [1]

It's inspired by the Ergodox, I just don't like the matrix + thumb clusters on the Ergo. I haven't tried it so I can't comment on that.

I want to add some missing keys via a function layer. For example pressin home = home. Pressin Function + Home = Insert.
I didn't want to add a lot of that to keep the clutter low. The ??? keys are there to be set for whatever, I play a lot of video games so I'll probably bind them to R/G/F/V etc for different games.

Would you want to use something like this? What would you change and why?
Thanks!

[vvp]

Add column stagger especially for little finger columns it should be as much as about ½u.
Look at some pictures from jacobolus to get inspiration about column stagger options.

You could also curve the keywell. It is very useful especially when you have more than 4 rows (as is your case). But that makes it also harder to produce. So this is a question of what tools you can get a cheap access to.

Use 1u keys in the bottom row at least for the 3 internal columns. You will be able to hit them with your thumb and it will not be a problem to hit 1u keys precisely. It is good to have more easily accessible keys for the thumbs.

As for as the HID code layout. It does not matter much now. You can easily redefine it later in firmware whatever way you will feel like. You will have better idea when you actually start to use the keyboard.

Print the layout (1:1 scale) on paper and check how does it work. Maybe make a 3d mock-up first too.

If you do not like thumb clusters than there is hardly much more to do.

[RadikulRAM]

Add column stagger especially for little finger columns it should be as much as about ½u.
Look at some pictures from jacobolus to get inspiration about column stagger options.

I couldn't find any pictures from jacobolus, I'm not good at searching posts on here.

By stagger, do you mean something like what the Ergo Dox uses? I want the matrix I have for this KB because it'll help me hit keys when gaming. Fed up of pressing 3 instead of 4, because I use the same finger for both. While I have my fingers on QWER.

EDIT: I was sleepy when I wrote this, but if I use a vertical stagger I'll still be using the same fingers...

You could also curve the keywell. It is very useful especially when you have more than 4 rows (as is your case). But that makes it also harder to produce. So this is a question of what tools you can get a cheap access to.

Like in this post? http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/curv ... t8472.html
If so it looks interesting, I'll try to prototype it. I have some balsa wood laying around, all I have to do is drill a whole for the big pin of a switch, then stick it though. The small metal pins go in easy and hold it in.

Use 1u keys in the bottom row at least for the 3 internal columns. You will be able to hit them with your thumb and it will not be a problem to hit 1u keys precisely. It is good to have more easily accessible keys for the thumbs.

I need to prototype this. I'll see if I can add any commonly used keys there. If so I'll probably make the ???/AlT keys which are 1.5, into 31u keys (Bottom example).

[hoggy]

If you're sticking to the matrix layout, it's probably worth your while trying out the layout on two point of sale keyboards. Access-IS. The AKC-048 is very close to your design at 8x6, but I've never seen these for sale on ebay. The akc-090 is a bit more common...

[chzel]

Unless he's in Europe he might have a hard time finding Access-IS boards.
RadikulRAM, http://deskthority.net/help-f53/please- ... t1386.html for more accurate suggestions!

[vvp]

By stagger, do you mean something like what the Ergo Dox uses?

Yes, like on ergodox. Columns are straight but different columns have different distance from the keyboard user body. Standard keyboards use row stagger. Ergodox uses column stagger.

Here is an example from jacobolus:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/scm- ... ml#p236231
Of course you decided to go withut thumb keys (which i think is a mistake), but if you like it that way more than do what you like. On that particular example the pinkie column stagger is something like ¾u which is probably too much for most users. I like about ½u stagger for pinkie column. Also on that example I do not like the top row being spread apart. Otherwise it looks very fine for a flat keyboard. Just my opinion.

And here you can find a ton of jacobolus' proposals (a thread where he actually came to the result above):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.0
Although that thread is mostly about thumb cluster but you can look there for examples what column stagger may be good to try. Print it on paper in 1:1 scale and try out what column stagger you may like (if any).

Like in this post? http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/curv ... t8472.html

Yes, and here are more options:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/katy ... ml#p247068
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71 ... msg1725562
https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-cave/
Curving makes the keyboard more comfortable but also harder to move around and harder to produce. If you have a cheap access to a 3d printer then I can recommend it. Otherwise it is probably better to go with a flat keyboard and more layering. (Far away keys will be considerably harder to reach on a flat keyboard so going with less keys and more layering looks like a good option to me.)

Edit: Right, and I forgot the famous Suka's thread:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-d ... tml#p44995
Suka's keyboards are kind of strange. He not only uses curved plates but also very small keybaords (small switch count). From my point of view it is overkill. When a keyboard has small switch count then it does not need to be curved, i.e. there is no need to increase the price by complicating the shape.

Use 1u keys in the bottom row at least for the 3 internal columns. You will be able to hit them with your thumb and it will not be a problem to hit 1u keys precisely. It is good to have more easily accessible keys for the thumbs.

I need to prototype this. I'll see if I can add any commonly used keys there. If so I'll probably make the ???/AlT keys which are 1.5, into 31u keys (Bottom example).

And you can also consider to use 1u keys for the outer pinkie column (i.e. use the same keys for the outer pinkie column as in your first example). They will be easy to hit (even when 1u). They are just in the next column to the pinkie home column. And no problem deciding whether they should have a stabilizer or not ... I would say here it depends mostly on what you believe will be easier to source.

Edit: Edits in italic.

[RadikulRAM]

I live in the UK, I think I managed to add that to my profile now. As for the Access KB's, they're not exactly what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply vvp, I chose to have the 1.5u keys on the sides (the reds) for asthetics, but I'll change that to suit any layout issues I might have.

I'll make some print outs and prototypes soon, will post images for continuity.

[RadikulRAM]

Alright, I made a few prototypes and the one I'm going to show now has staggering for the pinkie.

http://imgur.com/RxFy861

They keys are a mess, but the profiles are accurate.

On the top pinkie keys, the ones to the left, they are half a 1u keysize down.
On the bottom pinkie keys (? : b) keys, they are 3/4 of a 1u key down.

My hands measure 7 inches from my wrist to the tip of my middle finger.

I found the 3/4u lowered pinkie keys more comfortable.

On the 1/2u lowered pinkie keys, my pinkie finger was too flat to get a good press on my Gateron Blacks You can see that in the second image. I think these switches are 55 grams.
EDIT: The actuation of the blacks are 50g, the complete compression is like 75g.

Second image : http://imgur.com/1vRS85o

The other problem I'm having is with the 7th column. I can move my index finger to the 6th column just fine. To reach the 7th column I have to move my entire hand. I'll see if I can work around this.

I'm going to try out some thumb clusters now, see if I enjoy them.

For my pinkie finger I found lowering it by a whole key size/row works the best.

Here's what I mean: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 880829da99

[vvp]

For my pinkie finger I found lowering it by a whole key size/row works the best.

Yes, some people like full 1u stagger. If you like it too then that is great since you can keep keys nicely aligned