Cherry G84-4100 PPAGB review (Cherry ML low-profile)

[Chyros]

Something small this time, hope you enjoy it!

[davkol]

derp

[Chyros]

Wooo finally, my first negative comment xD .

[ohaimark]

Seems like the small/short throw is preference. Binding on off center keystrokes is awful, though.

I don't think it's quite negative... A bit insulting, as he's comparing you to the author of Twilight.

OMG. I guess that makes keyboard forum members teenage girls with immense hormone imbalances (as we watch your videos religiously). Like, that isn't even fair.

[Chyros]

Seems like the small/short throw is preference.

They're not really short throw though (3 mm), that was what I was trying to get to in the video. For such a small switch, they really squeezed quite a bit of performance out of it.

OMG. I guess that makes keyboard forum members teenage girls with immense hormone imbalances (as we watch your videos religiously). Like, that isn't even fair.

LOL xD

[ohaimark]

I've heard that they can be kinda nice when lubed. Are you willing to give that a shot?

[davkol]

derp

[Muirium]

Agreed on the last point. Those of us with big broad hairy hands (I've seen your blond fur, Chyros, its like mine!) get annoyed by smaller key spacing, but most human beings aren't so big. There's as much a rôle for smaller keys as there is for smaller glove sizes. Humans are a varied lot.

[Chyros]

These switches are pretty much like modern Cherry MX. They need to be "broken in", and then benefit from lubrication.

I really don't rate switches that feel bad out of the box, especially ones that need lubricant as well. The switches in this board are as good as new, so that's almost certainly what's going on here. In my videos I try to review a product as you can expect it to be when you get it, so if manufacturers provide a product that's unsatisfactory out of the box, it will reflect as such in my review. These switches in particular are not easy to open and modify, so I'm not going to bother.


My reviews are meant to be a fairly comprehensive overview for anyone who has no experience at all with the board, or even mechanical keyboards in general. If someone entirely new to mechs saw one and thought "hey, that looks interesting, let's see what's up with that" I want my reviews to be as useful as possible for them. Notions like "you need to use them for 5 years before they feel right" or "you need to use lube X before they don't feel like crap" or "you're typing too hard for the switches" or "you need to get used to small layouts" is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to achieve here. Worse, why the hell would I take orders from my keyboard?! Oo I'm not going to use a board for 5-10 years just so it feel acceptable after that, if I buy a brand new board and it feels like crap I'd return the motherfucker! I'm not going to make an immense effort to desolder all these switches and carefully open them, do whatever it is that needs to be done to make them useful and then carefully put them back together again just because a manufacturer has poor standards, in fact if I do I'd void the warranty! So if I get a board I'm going to show what it's like, unmodified, for an average user like me, who doesn't type at 400 WPM and who bottoms out on the switches. I'm just an average guy and that's the perspective I'm reviewing these keyboards from.

I might do some modding videos in the future (in fact I already did one about Matiases) but not on switches as fiddly and unpractical to mod as Cherry MX or Cherry ML. If I can't do it with a few toothpicks or something similar, forget it. If Cherry wanted to put out a switch that had lots of capabilities for modding, they shouldn't have made it so hard to do so.

Agreed on the last point. Those of us with big broad hairy hands (I've seen your blond fur, Chyros, its like mine!) get annoyed by smaller key spacing, but most human beings aren't so big. There's as much a rôle for smaller keys as there is for smaller glove sizes. Humans are a varied lot.

TBH I think people might have misinterpreted my review here a little. It seems that people conclude that I don't like the short throw and small keys, but actually I think they're not short throw at all, quite the opposite, that's why I like these more than chiclet keys. The small size of the keys is a bit fiddly, yeah (I do have big hands xD) but it's harder to work with so few keys for me, actually. Many people seem to really only use the alphanumeric block but I really need almost every single key on a keyboard on a very regular basis, so I wanted to point out to people who are used to fullsize keyboards, like me, how the layout might be confusing for them if they decided to try out this keyboard.

It also seems that people think I hate this keyboard or its switches, when again I don't at all, I think that for a small keyboard it's not bad at all - it's just that to me, it's not a worthy substitute for a fullsize with switches I like more than ML.

[ohaimark]

Chyros -- I was thinking of a hack lube job. Just shooting some sort of light, liquid lube into the switches and seeing if it made a difference. It's not like you'll be using it much anyways, right?

[scottc]

Actually Cherry MX is pretty damn easy to mod. Just as easy to open up as Alps (for PCB-mount switches, which most original Cherry boards are) and they don't require a degree in engineering to reassemble afterwards like some complicated Alps do.

Okay... I'm exaggerating a bit. But really, modding MX switches is easy!

[chzel]

I guess you mean ML Scott?

[scottc]

Nope -- Chyros says in his big wall of text:

I might do some modding videos in the future (in fact I already did one about Matiases) but not on switches as fiddly and unpractical to mod as Cherry MX or Cherry ML.

[davkol]

derp

[Chyros]

Actually Cherry MX is pretty damn easy to mod. Just as easy to open up as Alps (for PCB-mount switches, which most original Cherry boards are) and they don't require a degree in engineering to reassemble afterwards like some complicated Alps do.

Okay... I'm exaggerating a bit. But really, modding MX switches is easy!

Don't you still have to desolder and resolder them though? =o

These switches are pretty much like modern Cherry MX. They need to be "broken in", and then benefit from lubrication.

<wall of text>

I honestly think you're a bit hypocritical here.

You quote prices from recyclers in your videos. Most keyboards are already used, when bought from such sources. Meanwhile, I doubt any sane individual will buy a brand new G84-4100 from an official reseller. Can you guess why? Because it costs €50+. That's just batshit crazy.

Surprisingly, most items I get at the recycling centre are either so used or dirty no-one would look at them twice, or in amazing condition. Kind of "generally used" items are much rarer there than you would think. Besides, if I DO bump into one used enough that the switches aren't as scratchy, then people who got a as-new one would be misled by my video. I'm really not sure why you're so unhappy with me reviewing keyboards that are in good condition.

[chzel]

Nope -- Chyros says in his big wall of text:
....

My bad! I skipped right over the wall!

[davkol]

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[davkol]

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[Chyros]

I liked how you compared used and unused Futaba switches in the video on Acorn microcomputers. One part is obviously missing in this case.

Look, you and I obviously have a different opinion about ML switches. I don't know why you find that so incredibly offensive, but please let's not be a dick about it. People have different opinions, it's only natural.

[davkol]

derp

[jacobolus]

There are two big problems with ML switches. The first is that they are incredibly scratchy when brand new. They feel like a granite mortar and pestle. I’ve heard that lubing ameliorates this, but desoldering, opening the tiny switches, adding lubricant, and then soldering them back down is a tremendous pain in the ass. For anyone who doesn’t absolutely need the portability, it’s not worth the effort. Even for those who need portability, it’s probably easier to just get a scissor-switch board.

The other is that they have horribly designed keycaps for the switch performance. If you press the key directly above the slider, they work great, it’s only when you press the corner of a key that they bind like hell. If they always used keycaps with a top shape like this they’d be much better:


Alternately, keys with wire stabilizers work pretty well.

For anyone willing to manufacture their own custom shaped keycaps with a smaller-than-standard keytop, I think ML could be quite a nice switch for DIY portable keyboards, as you’d have to solder all the switches in anyway, and you could cut the keyboard down to about 40–50 keys, so lubing them wouldn’t be quite as much headache.

I wouldn’t personally recommend any of the standard G84 keyboards though. The way ML switches bind with their existing keycaps is just too broken.

[davkol]

derp

[jacobolus]

Edit: Okay, I just looked. Apparently it’s possible to open them on the PCB, if you sneak some little pointy tool under all of the four plastic tabs holding the top housing in, and pry them outward. It seems pretty difficult though – maybe if you did a whole bunch at once it would go faster. If you desolder, then the housing is much easier to get apart. I think in terms of time spent, desoldering, disassembling, and resoldering is probably about equally difficult to disassembling while soldered in.

[davkol]

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