Good keyboard layout with no duplicate keys? (right alt, shift, etc)

[Crispy_Bacon]

I've always wondered why those little small form factor keyboards forgo number keys and such, yet keep all the duplicate and vestigial keys few people use anymore. I could perhaps understand for typists, but personally I've never used the right windows key or scroll lock. Does anyone know of compact layouts that do away with the nav cluster and all those duplicate keys, while keeping the number row? I quickly mocked this up.

keyboard-layout.png (36.82 KiB) Viewed 4518 times

It is deeply flawed, the function keys could have been removed in favour of a function layer, I probably didn't a windows key, etc. It's just to give a general idea.

[vvp]

I've always wondered why those little small form factor keyboards forgo number keys and such, yet keep all the duplicate and vestigial keys few people use anymore.

Because the duplicate keys are used by people who touch type. One hand presses the modifier and the other hand types the key. Duplicate keys are great for this. The only problem with a traditional keyboard layout is that they are at sub-optimal positions. Ergodox, Kinesis, Maltron solve this better.

[kbdfr]

[…] all the duplicate and vestigial keys few people use anymore. I could perhaps understand for typists, but personally […]

That's precisely the point.
You drive only during the day and don"t understand why other people need cars with lights

As for me, I've never used things like "sound up" or "sound down",
and I wonder what your "Win the Internet button" keycap might be for.

[seebart]

Does anyone know of compact layouts that do away with the nav cluster and all those duplicate keys, while keeping the number row?

There are plenty of examples, here is just one:

keyboards-f2/btc-5100-t15129.html

wiki/BTC_5100

IMGP4230.JPG (941.06 KiB) Viewed 4485 times

Welcome to DT Crispy_Bacon!

[Findecanor]

Right Alt is used in several European layouts as Alt Graph to get graphical characters. I have also seen people complain on forums about keyboards that don't have a right Windows key.

Personally, I think that both Alt keys should act like Alt Graph like they did on Mac and Amiga. Then compact keyboards wouldn't really need two of them. But they are different keys because of compatibility with old programs.

[czarek]

Don't you think there is a reason for duplicate Shift, and Alt keys?
It's called touch typing.
You are supposed to try not to leave home row to increase your efficiency and reduce fatigue, improving overall comfort.

[czarek]

Personally, I think that both Alt keys should act like Alt Graph like they did on Mac and Amiga. Then compact keyboards wouldn't really need two of them. But they are different keys because of compatibility with old programs.

I agree 100%. In fact I have my keyboard mapped just like on Mac, with bottom row like this:

LCtrl, RAlt, LAlt, Space, RWin, RAlt, Menu, RCtrl.

Also, my LAlt basically acts like a meta key. Modifier used for issuing commands to GUI (Alt-Tab, Alt-F4).
Surely, Mac being GUI driven from starters handles this use case much nicer, without a need of any remapping, but with some remapping, Windows can be pretty efficient too.

I was also thinking about making a keyboard work with only one type of Alt keys and remap all Alt + alphanumeric keys to Alt-Gr + alphanumeric keys, but haven't had time to play with it in practice yet.

[Crispy_Bacon]

To all those saying "it's for touch typing", of course I know this. I even addressed this in my post. This is about finding something to suit MY needs, hence why I said "PERSONALLY, I've never used the right windows key or scroll lock".
Forgive me for being unaware of.. many things, I'm just dipping my toes into the dizzying world of custom keyboards. I thought I may be be able to find some quick, helpful answers here, but instead have been met with patronising, condescending behaviour.

[vvp]

I'm sorry man. I noticed you mentioned touch typing in your first post. But only after I posted. Although if I would notice it before I would not respond at all because why the hell should I when you are already aware of the best reason why modifiers are on both sides. Maybe you can learn touch typing and then you would like keyboards with multiple modifiers too ... wink ... wink

[kbdfr]

[…] I thought I may be be able to find some quick, helpful answers here, but instead have been met with patronising, condescending behaviour.

I think I quite precisely met your tone:

[…] all the duplicate and vestigial keys few people use anymore. I could perhaps understand for typists, but personally […]

That's precisely the point.
You drive only during the day and don"t understand why other people need cars with lights

As for me, I've never used things like "sound up" or "sound down",
and I wonder what your "Win the Internet button" keycap might be for.

[Crispy_Bacon]

I guess this community isn't as welcoming as I first thought. Perhaps I have to learn to make use of the right hand modifiers and scroll lock to be accepted. I can touch type, but apparently preferring to use the left modifiers or having no use for scroll lock is unacceptable. No such keyboard should exist without these keys, I must conform or else be met with "kbdfr"'s tone.

[kbdfr]

I guess this community isn't as welcoming as I first thought. Perhaps I have to learn to make use of the right hand modifiers and scroll lock to be accepted. I can touch type, but apparently preferring to use the left modifiers or having no use for scroll lock is unacceptable. No such keyboard should exist without these keys, I must conform or else be met with "kbdfr"'s tone.

Perhaps you should try to not take it personally when people don't agree with you.

I happen to have way more "duplicate keys" than you probably can imagine (e.g. double Enter, double Delete, even triple nav cluster) and added to my (big!) keyboard "vestigial keys" or unusual ones like e.g. dedicated foreign diacritics or #, %, @ keys.
All these make my daily (professional, btw) typing much easier and faster.
That's why I jokingly wrote "You drive only during the day and don"t understand why other people need cars with lights".
But of course, you can consider being offended as your prerogative if you like.

Oh, by the way, welcome to DT

[seebart]

I guess this community isn't as welcoming as I first thought.

That's a shame, usually we are or you may have too high expectations!

No such keyboard should exist without these keys

That is your opinion, nothing more.

I must conform or else be met with "kbdfr"'s tone.

NO. You must NOT conform! As for kbdfr's "tone", it's harmless. Grumpy at best.

[Crispy_Bacon]

NO. You must NOT conform! As for kbdfr's "tone", it's harmless. Grumpy at best.

But, I thought I had to use scroll lock and a full keyboard, because other people like them..and reasons... Rather than a neat little travel keyboard tailored to my needs?
I started this thread hoping for recommendations, not be told why other people love the right windows key and scroll lock.

[Wodan]

kbdfr in a nutshell:

[seebart]

NO. You must NOT conform! As for kbdfr's "tone", it's harmless. Grumpy at best.

But, I thought I had to use scroll lock and a full keyboard, because other people like them..and reasons... Rather than a neat little travel keyboard tailored to my needs?
I started this thread hoping for recommendations, not be told why other people love the right windows key and scroll lock.

You should never use anything because someone else likes it or uses it! What do you like, or rather what would you like to use? If you want a recomendation from me I'll need to know how much you want to spend.

[kbdfr]

[…] I started this thread hoping for recommendations, not be told why other people love the right windows key and scroll lock.

Then you shouldn't have started by posting about "all the duplicate and vestigial keys few people use anymore", i.e. by telling what other people are doing wrong.

As for kbdfr's "tone", it's harmless. Grumpy at best.

kbdfr in a nutshell:

Fixed that for you

[Crispy_Bacon]

You should never use anything because someone else likes it or uses it! What do you like, or rather what would you like to use? If you want a recomendation from me I'll need to know how much you want to spend.

Not yet at the stage of buying anything, still researching. Although for the sake of it, just say under $300 to purchase or build. I like 65% keyboards such as the white fox, and was wondering if any similarly compact layouts existed (conceptual or not), losing all the right modifiers and nav cluster, but keeping the arrow keys and delete key.

[seebart]

You should never use anything because someone else likes it or uses it! What do you like, or rather what would you like to use? If you want a recomendation from me I'll need to know how much you want to spend.

Not yet at the stage of buying anything, still researching. Although for the sake of it, just say under $300 to purchase or build. I like 65% keyboards such as the white fox, and was wondering if any similarly compact layouts existed (conceptual or not), losing all the right modifiers and nav cluster, but keeping the arrow keys and delete key.

For under $300 you can get alomst anything even if you live on the moon. What switches have you tried? You like Topre?

Fixed that for you

Now we know kbdfr is actually a grumpy Japanese Gozilla from the 1960's which is why he needs those giant keyboards...obvioulsy no sesame street Wodan!

[Crispy_Bacon]

[…] I started this thread hoping for recommendations, not be told why other people love the right windows key and scroll lock.

Then you shouldn't have started by posting about "all the duplicate and vestigial keys few people use anymore", i.e. by telling what other people are doing wrong.

I did say few people, and only meant for that to apply to the "vestigial keys", not the other modifier keys. You've made me very aware just how bloody much people love them. You may very well use the scroll lock and Sys Rq, although I'm not sure what for, as they don't seem it serve any purpose in most modern programs. (Please don't actually tell me, I really don't care. I just wanted a travel keyboard.)

[kbdfr]

I just want[…] a travel keyboard.

Now that's a good start

[Crispy_Bacon]

For under $300 you can get alomst anything even if you live on the moon. What switches have you tried? You like Topre

I've found cherry MX browns quite comfortable having used rubber domes all my life. Right now I'm just exploring possibilities for layouts, so no worrying about the other details for now.