Round 5 and Round 6 kits for sale!

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rominronin

19 Dec 2016, 09:06

Yesss!

THANK YOUUUU!

lolpes

19 Dec 2016, 09:58

@7bit you can start working on 0873 now :D

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Veggis

19 Dec 2016, 12:20

I'm leaving for vacation on a couple of hours, so potato pics will have to suffice for now.

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8-) 8-) 8-)

ocodo

19 Dec 2016, 13:48

@7Bit I have some dupes / missing keys in my Violett Cream set, let me know what you can do to help...

If anyone has a dupe numpad 9 - I have a dupe numpad 3

If anyone has a dupe F - I have a dupe E

More than happy to do the exchange like that if we can track down our counterparties.

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Menuhin

19 Dec 2016, 14:09

I am brewing a project that requires caps from Round 5 and Round 6 while I will be getting the main set from Round 7. Well because some caps are not available in Round 7 or that they're not sold separately as individual caps. For example tilde cap is not sold separately.

I know the blue color is the same.
But how obviously different are the various grey colors when they're placed side by side?
i.e. GD vs GPA vs GDC (7)

Hanni

19 Dec 2016, 14:22

0810
0822
Damn, close to 0815 :(

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phinix

19 Dec 2016, 14:30

Just wanted to ask - how is the rest of the payments going?

New collectors - is it going forward? Are we getting there?:)

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GriffDeLaGriff

19 Dec 2016, 15:58

sweet hesus thats some nice caps!

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rominronin

19 Dec 2016, 17:05

cream caps :cry:

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zslane

19 Dec 2016, 17:40

phinix wrote: Just wanted to ask - how is the rest of the payments going?

New collectors - is it going forward? Are we getting there?:)
Not really. I have received only seven payments during the three weeks I have been collecting. The total I have collected has not yet broken $800 USD. Add to that whatever Ail has received and I think it is fair to say we still have a very long way to go.

lolpes

19 Dec 2016, 17:51

Should be good now that the pics are coming in that people would start to buy more :) give it some time after new year ;)

1deeg

19 Dec 2016, 17:58

Seeing those cream caps makes me excited for this GB again :duck:

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phinix

19 Dec 2016, 19:04

zslane wrote:
phinix wrote: Just wanted to ask - how is the rest of the payments going?

New collectors - is it going forward? Are we getting there?:)
Not really. I have received only seven payments during the three weeks I have been collecting. The total I have collected has not yet broken $800 USD. Add to that whatever Ail has received and I think it is fair to say we still have a very long way to go.

Doesn't sound good....



7bit - let me know what do you have left from phase1 please. Maybe I could buy something and help out. But I mean you have it in your hands, so I wouldn't have to wait another year for it;)
I'm waiting for my order from phase2 and slowly loosing faith.

Is there anything I could cover ISO UK TKL?
Cream alphas any mods etc.?

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Ail

19 Dec 2016, 20:38

Altogether it sounds like we have collected approximately $1,000 USD.

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zslane

19 Dec 2016, 20:52

Right, and if the goal is $10k that puts us only 10% of the way there. If the goal is only $5k, then we are 20% of the way there. In either case, we still have a long way to go.

xtr0n

19 Dec 2016, 22:18

I realize that 7bit is busy getting orders shipped out, but it would be nice if someone could, at some point, do an accounting of which orders aren't paid up. I realize this is difficult with incomplete information from some of the previous collectors, but what happens if we never get that info?

I'm assuming that if you didn't pay, there is zero chance that the bot thinks that you paid. And earlier someone said that they think that the previous collectors turned over all of the money they collected. If those are both true then we would need to reconcile the collected payments with the people who paid but aren't marked as having done so. Does that all sound correct?

(I'm also assuming that if someone isn't marked as paid then nothing gets shipped to them, regardless of what rounds they're in, right?)

If you aren't paid up according to the bot, does it contain some big bold message at the top saying "YOU ARE NOT PAID UP! IF YOU DID PAY SEND US THE DETAILS ASAP SINCE SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY WRONG!" If I paid and it wasn't accounted for, I would want to be hit over the head with that information :)

I'm very curious to know the total dollar value of keys that were sold but not paid for. Does that total at least 9K or is there a need to sell the unsold kits in addition to collecting the remaining payments?

After a few months of having new collectors, will the sold but not paid for products go back up for sale?

(I'm super busy the next few weeks but if any help is needed sorting things out, I could volunteer to lend a hand in min-January)

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phinix

19 Dec 2016, 22:46

I also think that we should at some point release unpaid orders.

No point holding them if someone is not paying for it.
Give a chance to people who would really buy those sets and have money in hand.

What do you guys think?

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nowai

19 Dec 2016, 23:03

Probably all orders could be cleared that are (unpaid AND (the user was not active for more than a month OR no correspondence with the bot for more than a month)).

Because there might be people like me who are waiting for new stuff to pop up in the leftovers. So I haven't payed the full amount yet (although most of it is payed) to avoid getting my unfinished order shipped.

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infodroid

19 Dec 2016, 23:23

I agree with the concerns raised above by xtr0n, phinix, and others.

I have been piecing together several comments by 7bit going back a few weeks, and I have more questions.

7bit says there are orders that are marked as unpaid from people who claim that they actually paid. This is because Mashby and SL89 have become unavailable or unresponsive, and are not able to investigate or to provide final balances.

So 7bit is still waiting to hear back from these collectors. He doesn't know who really paid and who didn't pay. If he knew that, then he could cancel the unpaid orders and put them back on the market.

But an update from the collectors might not come any time soon. And 7bit has already advised people to try to recover their funds through a PayPal dispute.

1. Why not just cancel all unpaid orders from 180 days (or so) ago and put the items back on the market immediately to raise real funds? Anybody that actually paid can recover the fund from PayPal.

I would also like to know:

2. What is the final bill for Round 6 Phase 2?

3. What is the dollar total of the unpaid orders? What portion of that are people that claim to have paid?

4. What is the dollar total for all the unsold items in Round 6? Who is paying for these to be manufactured?

7bit also stated that he paid $10,000 extra for the Space Cadet kits with the "too small legends" and that "this had not been planned for".

5. Will the sale of the new "too small legend" Space Cadet kits raise at least $10,000? (I don't think it will)

6. Why did 7bit agree to pay the extra $10,000? Did he have another plan to cover this amount?

References:

group-buys-f50/doubleshot-replacements- ... ml#p329630
group-buys-f50/doubleshot-replacements- ... ml#p338705
group-buys-f50/doubleshot-replacements- ... ml#p339044
group-buys-f50/round-7-algol-style-sphe ... ml#p338389

Edit: removed the suggestion to cancel all orders using Mashby and SL89
Last edited by infodroid on 20 Dec 2016, 03:14, edited 10 times in total.

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eddible

19 Dec 2016, 23:26

Filing PayPal disputes isn't an option. I paid my money to Mashby ages ago, I tried to file a dispute recently due to all this uncertainty and PayPal rejected my claim as it was over 180 days.

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infodroid

19 Dec 2016, 23:28

It's really quite moronic to keep extending the deadline of a group buy beyond the PayPal dispute window.

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eddible

19 Dec 2016, 23:30

infodroid wrote:It's really quite moronic to keep extending the deadline of a group buy beyond the PayPal dispute window.
I always knew it would take longer than 180 days, but with 5 previous successful rounds I just assumed it would work out. I get the impression this round is different.

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mecano

20 Dec 2016, 10:42

Andrea please, please. please. Could you ship my R5 leftovers that are packed for more than a month now, the black set with some other keys are a christmas gift! I guess there is still hope if you post it today, just the leftovers these are packed already. Order 742

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caligo

20 Dec 2016, 12:12

This is what I've managed to piece together. Take it for what it is.
infodroid wrote:
1. Why not just cancel all unpaid orders from 180 days (or so) ago and put the items back on the market immediately to raise real funds? Anybody that actually paid can recover the fund from PayPal.
Apparently there's no way of knowing which orders are unpaid until the collectors submit that info to 7bit. As I understand it, some money has been transferred to 7bit from the collectors but he does not have full information on who that money came from in the first place.
infodroid wrote: 2. What is the final bill for Round 6 Phase 2?
Judging by the info in the latest invoice I got, the stuff in Phase 2 that has actually been sold ammounts to about 15,300 USD. But I don't know how much is left unsold.
infodroid wrote: 4. What is the dollar total for all the unsold items in Round 6? Who is paying for these to be manufactured?
I don't know what the total ammount is, but I guess 7bit is paying for it. And if he does not have enough money do do so, then no order is made. Hence the current situation. Prices are based on MOQ – if a kit is priced at so-and-so based on an order of like 25, and only a few people order said kit, then 7bit has to order 25 kits anyway and hope to sell the remaining ones as leftovers (or raise the prices for people who have already made their orders and paid for them). There is some leeway for things like these with the pricing model 7bit uses, but not that much.
infodroid wrote: 7bit also stated that he paid $10,000 extra for the Space Cadet kits with the "too small legends" and that "this had not been planned for".

5. Will the sale of the new "too small legend" Space Cadet kits raise at least $10,000? (I don't think it will)
As far as I can see in the latest invoice, selling those kits have so far brought in a little over 1,000 USD. That's for the 17 kits sold – I don't know how many where produced and remain in the leftovers, but even if there where like 150 of them left there's not enough mods etc. to go with them and make for complete sets. So the answer is probably no.
infodroid wrote: 6. Why did 7bit agree to pay the extra $10,000? Did he have another plan to cover this amount?
Presumably because SP didn't think it was their fault (as far as I know we didn't have to pay anything extra for the keys they screwed up, eg. those made using defective moulds they should have dicarded ages ago). I think it was due to that whole debacle with 7bit sending them .svg files and SP misinterpreting said files, but I'm not 100 percent sure – it's been a while since that whole thing went down. But no matter what the reason was, remaking the legends was probably the reasonable thing to do because the alternative could arguably have been lots of cancelled orders.

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infodroid

20 Dec 2016, 12:47

caligo wrote:
infodroid wrote: 1. Why not just cancel all unpaid orders from 180 days (or so) ago and put the items back on the market immediately to raise real funds? Anybody that actually paid can recover the fund from PayPal.
Apparently there's no way of knowing which orders are unpaid until the collectors submit that info to 7bit. As I understand it, some money has been transferred to 7bit from the collectors but he does not have full information on who that money came from in the first place.
7bot knows everybody who placed an order and who also has not fully paid up. This is my definition of an unpaid order.

If a person with an unpaid order sent money to the collector, and the collector did not update 7bit, and this payment was less than 180 days ago, then this person can recover their funds from PayPal through dispute resolution.

So 7bit doesn't need confirmation from the collector about whether they have sent money or how much. He can just cancel all orders from 150 days ago (allowing 30 days for people to file a dispute).

This works because if somebody in this situation actually paid a collector, they can get their money through PayPal. Several people have reported success with dispute resolution, even though it can take several weeks to complete the process.

This may raise some funds, but only 7bit knows how much.
caligo wrote:
infodroid wrote: 6. Why did 7bit agree to pay the extra $10,000? Did he have another plan to cover this amount?
Presumably because SP didn't think it was their fault (as far as I know we didn't have to pay anything extra for the keys they screwed up, eg. those made using defective moulds they should have dicarded ages ago). I think it was due to that whole debacle with 7bit sending them .svg files and SP misinterpreting said files, but I'm not 100 percent sure – it's been a while since that whole thing went down. But no matter what the reason was, remaking the legends was probably the reasonable thing to do because the alternative could arguably have been lots of cancelled orders.
It is not clear that remaking the legends is the reasonable thing to do. For one thing, the Space Cadet "too small legends" look very good to me, and some people may prefer these legends or not care about the difference from 7bit's design.

Another issue is that Phase 1 participants will receive all their goods, while Phase 2 participants may never receive their goods or their money back.

So if the group buy is short $10000 for Phase 2, and $10000 is also the cost of remaking the legends, then 7bit has effectively forced the Phase 2 participants to foot the bill for the mistake, without any consultation. Even though Phase 2 doesn't include any Space Cadet kits.

7. Why is 7bit only asking Phase 2 participants to share the cost of this mistake?
Last edited by infodroid on 20 Dec 2016, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.

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caligo

20 Dec 2016, 13:28

infodroid wrote: 7bot knows everybody who placed an order and who also has not fully paid up. This is my definition of an unpaid order.

If a person with an unpaid order sent money to the collector, and the collector did not update 7bit, and this payment was less than 180 days ago, then this person can recover their funds from PayPal through dispute resolution.

So 7bit doesn't need confirmation from the collector about whether they have sent money or how much. He can just cancel all orders from 150 days ago (allowing 30 days for people to file a dispute).

This works because if somebody in this situation actually paid a collector, they can get their money through PayPal. Several people have reported success with dispute resolution, even though it can take several weeks to complete the process.

This may raise some funds, but I don't know how much.
And what then of the people who paid more than 180 days ago, and cannot get their money back from PayPal? And what about the money 7bit actually has received? Should he send that back to the (unreliable) PayPal collector and just hope they refund whoever sent it in the first place? I don't think there's a solution to this that does not involve the former collectors cooperating to sort things out, unfortunately.
infodroid wrote: It is not clear that remaking the legends is the reasonable thing to do. For one thing, the "too small legends" don't look that bad to me, some people may prefer the legends or not notice the difference.

Another issue is that Phase 1 participants have received all their goods, while many Phase 2 participants may never receive either their goods or their money back.

So if the group buy is short $10000 for Phase 2, and $10000 is also the cost of remaking these legends, then 7bit has effectively forced the Phase 2 participants to foot the bill for the mistake, without any consultation.

Why is 7bit only asking Phase 2 participants to share the cost of this mistake?
If the alternative was that people would start cancelling their orders since they got something else than what they paid for, remaking the keys seems fairly reasonable. And seeing how the main selling point of the Space Cadet kits was them being really accurate to what the original looked like, I don't think such a scenario is that unlikely. And if that were to happen, those Space Cadet people would have wanted to cancel mods etc. as well. I don't see how that situation could have been solved in a way where everyone got what they wanted. It still sucks, and I mostly agree with your points: it does not look that bad, consulting people here on the forum first would probably have been a better weay to go about it, and so on. But on the other hand, it is what it is – 7bit made that call, and the keys have already been remade and paid for. Us arguing the pros and cons of said descision won't change that.

As I wrote a few posts back, effectively dividing one GB into two separate ones financed with the same pool of funds could potentially lead to some nasty problems. And if the R7 money has also been pooled into the same pile of cash and used to salvage R6, then things are potentially turning really pear shaped. I sincerely hope that the money for Phase 1, Phase 2, and R7 have been kept separate. If not this whole thing is basically turning into som kind of weird Ponzi scheme, albeit one without any real winners (except maybe those who actually get their keycaps). I have something over 200 USD invested in R7, and a pending refund of another 200 USD that I've yet to see some two months after the fact (long story). If that money has also effectively gone into R6 Phase 1, I won't be too pleased.

Us Phase 2 customers (that's where nearly all of my R6 keys are at) could very well end up paying for other peoples' keys without getting any of our own, just like you're saying. But at the moment we don't really know how the money has been spent – for all I know, the extra 10,000 might as well have come from 7bits profit margins or personal savings. My main gripe with the current state of things is the lack of transparency. And a breakdown of how the funds have been spent and what's missing would go a long way towards alleviating that. I'd prefer to not get my torch and pitchfork out until Phase 2 actually falls apart.

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infodroid

20 Dec 2016, 13:31

caligo wrote: If the alternative was that people would start cancelling their orders since they got something else than what they paid for, remaking the keys seems fairly reasonable.
People cancelling their orders is not a risk or a problem because SP kits have value and can be sold to other buyers easily.

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infodroid

20 Dec 2016, 13:37

caligo wrote: And what then of the people who paid more than 180 days ago, and cannot get their money back from PayPal? And what about the money 7bit actually has received? Should he send that back to the (unreliable) PayPal collector and just hope they refund whoever sent it in the first place? I don't think there's a solution to this that does not involve the former collectors cooperating to sort things out, unfortunately.
The goal of this proposal is to raise sufficient funds to produce Phase 2. If sufficient funds can be raised just by cancelling 180 days orders and writing off the remaining amount to the unresponsive collectors, then it is a viable option that should be considered. If it works, then everybody will still receive exactly what they ordered or all their money back.

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eddible

20 Dec 2016, 13:39

All this hinges on PayPal actually accepting the dispute. It isn't just a case of asking for a refund and it being instantly sent to you. And with the nature of the GB, it's very difficult to demonstrate to PayPal where things have gone wrong and what you're actually complaining about. I'm not saying it's impossible but to cancel people's orders when there's no guarantee they'd get a refund can't be a consideration.

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

20 Dec 2016, 13:43

How many black TKL sets away from Round 6.2 are we?

Perhaps XMIT Keyboards can stock a few sets. :roll:

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