Why want to keep staggered alignment when building from scratch?

[akaibukai]

Hello,

I'm getting interested to touch type (switching to VIM too).
So I first switched to a mechanical keyboard a couple of years ago.
And I really felt the difference with those $10 keyboards...

Next I would probably switch to those optimized layouts..
But before diving to learn one particular layout (I'm still thinking about which one to choose and then stick with it) I'm interested to switch first to an ergonomic alignment.

Indeed, I think that an optimized layout (eg. dvorak) with those shitty alignments seems not really relevant.
In contrast, an ergonomic alignment despite a wrong qwerty layout seems more efficient.
But I'm a true noob so I'm probably wrong..

Anyway, an ergonomic (aka ortholinear) alignment seems to be more important than the layout itself in the way to touch type and RSI reducing..

And when I saw that:


I wonder, why so many enthusiasts when going to build from scratch still stick to those last century construction-limited alignment?
I saw many DIY construction with those staggered alignment...
Some are still clever like this one https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88719.0 which beeing NOT ortholinear seems to be still "ergonomic" since the layout is at least symetrical and since the keys are then aligned with the arm on the left side...

Thank you.

Remark: I asked this question just to get some background about keyboards in general since I plan to build something like that https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84985.0

[Menuhin]

Hey,
I've been thinking the same way too.
Perhaps 99% modern computer users grew up using staggered keyboard layout and most of them are quite accustomed to using keyboards with similar settings.

I bet in a family where both parents use only ergo keyboards with orthollinear layout, and their children also will grow up using those, then it can be the case that they always prefer ortholinear and ergo layout keyboards. Such a family will probably have a hard time when they have to use the common staggered keyboard in a library or in a hotel. All of them may have to bring their mobile ergo boards (e.g. Planck, Alexus, Let's Split, etc) wherever they go.

That ergo Topre project from the GH link is a hardcore one, I hope you are one of those with the know-how and the time and skill, then at least I can have some eye candies that let me drool on my HHKB.

P.s. check this out , this balanced-staggered ergo project may seem small for the goal you're aiming at, but I think it's legit.

[Techno Trousers]

There is one main reason: inertia. There are millions, perhaps billions of traditional QWERTY keyboards deployed today. Most touch typists know this layout. Many people need to use more than one keyboard in their jobs. Very few people, even enthusiasts, are willing or able to undertake the immense effort required to change layouts. I know of what I speak--I used Colemak exclusively for 18 months. I like it a lot, and it's very comfortable for long typing sessions, but the benefits weren't worth the drawbacks (losing QWERTY muscle memory, slower typing speed). I've thought that perhaps I'll switch permanently after I retire. But as a 100+ wpm typist, I really don't understand the appeal of an ortholinear keyboard.

[vvp]

The most important points first:

• If you do not need to move your keyboard around then get a split keyboard so that you can adjust angles.
• Get column staggered keyboard. E.g. like Ergodox but preferably more staggered.
• Get something with thumb clusters or at least a split space bar (if you think thumb clusters are too much of a change).
• If money is not a big deal then contoured keyboards are a bit more comfortable.

People are building more or less standard keyboards since they are afraid that it would be hard to learn to type on a different layout. Or they are afraid that they would forget to type on a standard querty when they switch their main keyboard for e.g. Ergodox. It does not make sense but that is the fear. It takes about week or two weeks of 1-2 hour a day training to learn a new layout. And I never heard of anybody who learned e.g. Ergodox or Kinesis Advantage layout and forgot to type on standard querty. They may get slower on standard keyboard but they still will be OK with it (provided that they still use it just a little bit here and there).
There is one valid reason to stick with a standard keyboard though (well except money). If other people are going to use your keyboard then it makes sense to use a keyboard which does not scare them.

[Menuhin]

@Techno Trousers
I just also wanted to add the similar case for Colemak and Dvorak too.

At least these alternative layouts are easily available in most OS, but it doesn't soft the case in the library or hotel scenarios.

@vvp
I don't have the experience but I see your point. I don't feel too bad when switching back to normal ANSI from HHKB, but it definitely feels more at home to type on my main layout.
For me it can also be the fear of making all my other keyboards obsolete if I find out that I'm an ergo keyboard person.

[vvp]

Techno Trousers: There is much bigger difference between Colemak and Qwerty when compared to e.g. Standard Layout Querty and Ergodox Querty.
But some people think that it is actually bad when layouts are similar because it makes them more confused.

[Orpheo]

Yes it's been experienced by all who tried or use ortho : it's switching between keyboard that is the reason to keep the staggered layout.
I like my ergodox to bits for what it's worth.

[akaibukai]

Hello,

I'm aware that there are some inertia (one and a half century long one).

But my point is about those who are enthusiasts/users enough that they can spend hours and money to build/buy those of one keyboards.

To be honest, I don't agree with the argument about the Qwerty compatibility...
When I use for myself 10 hours or more a day my computer (so my keyboard) I want to be efficient enough to not be disgusted (not speed but comfort related aspect).
And (in my case) the fact that someone else could be confused when using my personal and professional keyboard is not relevant.. It's not intended to be used by someone else..

Even if it happens to someone with a huuuge experience of alternative keyboard (with different layout eg. dvorak or different placement eg. ergodox) to really forget about qwerty, I don't think that if he type gmail.com or which is the best place to visit around here at 50% of its regular wpm speed on that hotel's shitty keyboard really matters...

I mean, if someone is interested to optimize some aspect of its daily typing (eg. the switches, the layout, etc.) why not to go fully that way?
Namely a better alignment which could be actually.. aligned, and moreover, at optimal distance against the fingers tips..
After all our fingers have all different lengths.. So some orthogonal layouts (like planck keyboard) seem not really the optimal results for me.

In my case when I type enough text in a row (which means at least 15 minutes only without any pause which happens sporadically since I'm not yet proficient enough to deliver code at the speed of though but often enough still 15 minutes is not that much) I began to feel some stress in my left pinky and ring fingers... Which disgust me to continue...

So even if dvorak is a great layout that taken into account some statistics (frequency, balance etc.), typing a or o with my left pinky on a regular staggered keyboard won't really help me.. And trying to keep at the same distance my pinky and other fingers on a planck keyboard too...

In my particular case I mostly want to type with less pain first (which could also be tend to be a faster, but mostly I aim the comfort and the accuracy).
So I think that an optimal result for a comfortable intensive typing experience could be a combination of some aspects(1).

Can anyone provide some readings about hand physiological aspects? I want to understand optimal hand rest position(2) and optimal fingers course.

(1)Which can be of various form: physiological, language dependent etc.)
Here is my attempt to list those aspects (everyone's welcomed to contribute)

• Keys positions
  • Vertical alignment (Y alignment): Should follow fingers alignment
  • Horizontal alignment (X alignment): Should follow hands curvature
  • Depth position (Z alignment): Should follow the fingers tip rest position (ie. fingers length and curvature)
  • Orientation (Key travel orientation): Should follow fingers tip travel (in relation to tip translation and phalanx rotation)
  • Key strokes length: Should follow fingers tip travel (in relation to tip translation and phalanx rotation too)
• Keys type
  • Keys feedback type: Should follow person's preference and feeling (tactile feedback or not, linear or not etc., maybe the most taste dependent parameter..)
  • Keys strength: Should follow fingers strength (eg. 40gr for pinkies and 60gr for indexes)
• Layout (language dependent)
  • Left-Right hands well-balanced: Ideally 50/50
  • Weak-Strong fingers distribution (I mean unbalanced usage of fingers. It's okey for strong fingers to type more often, but if keys force are distribute too, could be not relevant, here)
• Technological (this aspect matters about DIY approach)
  • Ease of implementation (eg. Cherry easier than Topre)
  • Keys operation: Detection distance and fiability, debouncing, etc.

I'm aware that some of these aspects depend of everyone taste, but I think that some should be empirical..


(2) Which can be something like that (if it was not non-proportional dramatization)

[chuckdee]

I tried to use a planck for several months, before giving up. The lack of the stagger instead of improving my productivity, reduced it. That's not to say anything about the layout, but the ortho life just isn't for me.

[akaibukai]

Indeed, I just realized that in ortholinear it's more the linear that makes sense more than the ortho..
I mean I agree that a fully orthogonal matrix keyboard (like the planck) not really hugs the hand (at least no more than a standard staggered keyboard)

[codemonkeymike]

The creator of OLKB.com explained the term Ortholinear was made up by some company in the 90's to explain a "matrix layout" and avoided calling it a "matrix" because the original Planks were hand wired matrixes which would have been confusing.

[Menuhin]

I tried to use a planck for several months, before giving up. The lack of the stagger instead of improving my productivity, reduced it. That's not to say anything about the layout, but the ortho life just isn't for me.

You mean the lack of vertical stagger?
Or the common horizontal stagger that you were used to?

I am about to jump in the trend of this cute Planck keyboard, but would love to hear more from experienced users.
If vertical staggering is what you are talking about that I suppose Atreus will be a much better design - I have always been thinking about that, despite Planck is such a cute and striking design that looks like some of the exhibition items in MoMA in NYC.

[fruitalgorithm]

There's not a lot of choice for otholiner or column staggered boards. I consider 40% boards like the Planck more like exercises in minimalism and less of an all round usable keyboard. Truly Ergonomic Keyboard, Kineses Advantage, ErgoDox are pretty much the only keyboards you can buy fully assembled. There's also TypeMatrix, but it's not mechanical.

Most people don't even care about their keyboards even if they spend their days using them. They will use what they have. So the only ones who are even interested are crazy enthusiasts, gamers, and people with RSI issues. I only got interested in keyboard design once I developed problems with my wrists.

I'm confident that a keyboard similar to the TEK could be successful. It was mainly hampered by having a bad reputation for quality. Not having exchangeable keycaps further made it complicated to be successful in the enthusiast market. Its size and layout have a broader appeal than 60% or small keyboards.

Keyboard enthusiasts have a much easier time to find proper keycaps when choosing a traditional layout. Building anything else takes more effort, time, money.

There has never been a major effort by a computer company to ship an orthogonal layout. Microsoft is the only one that hasn't given up making ergonomic keyboards. I guess Apple would be the only company that could convince their customers to buy into an orthogonal layout. But I don't see them making such radical descisions with the current leadership.

The current interest in ortho layouts will probably lead to more being made in the near future. I would never have guessed that 40% percent boards become easily availle with the Vortex Core and the MagicForce. Cheap Chinese ErgoDoxes also point to a better future.

[RickCHodgin]

On my design, I keep the staggered layout because I think the IBM Models M and F are classic, and of desirable form. I desire to follow along in their stead.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin

[Kurplop]

Akaibukai, you have already considered a lot of variables in ergonomic keyboard design and are asking all the right questions. A fair amount of scientific research has been done and some have arrived at pretty strong conclusions about typing habits as well as keyboard/mouse design. "The only proper way is to use this product, this way."

I'm reminded of a time a few years ago when a keyboard forum member (a self appointed, resident ergonomic guru), after analyzing all the available data as well as his own exhaustive experiments, made several dogmatic assertions about keyboard design. Proper staggering, tenting angles, spring weight, proportioned finger usage, rest intervals, posture; he had a prescription for everything. His bluff was called when asked which keyboard he used. After all of his ergonomic pontifications, it was discovered his keyboard of preference was an Apple Bluetooth! That fact probably offers the single best piece of ergonomic advice: Take the "experts" findings with a grain of salt and use whichever keyboard works best for you.

This doesn't mean to ignore the opinions of others; the opinions of other users and experts are helpful. Just don't let another's research overrule what your own body is telling you. Your keyboard usage will affect your needs. Do you do accounting? CAD work? Extensive writing? These will all be factors in an ergonomic design affecting the pointing device, the need for a 10 key, and key layout.

I have found that for me:
1. tenting around 15º is a good compromise between pronation issues and bulkiness
2. having a separation of 6" between the G and H (qwerty) is about right
3. angling the halves 15º in at the top adequately addresses my ulnar alignment
4. switch type is unimportant but I prefer a shorter activation stroke
5. an adjustable tray allows me to change height and tilt if I need a change
6. one of the best things I did was modifying my chair armrests with extra padding to rest my arms on while typing
7. by using 8-10 thumb keys and eliminated the outer rows my stronger thumbs take the burden off of my pinky fingers
8. a modified center mounted trackball is close and can be used ambidextrously
9. reducing vertical pitch between keys minimizes hand movement
10. Staggering to accomodate finger length is very important

I use two custom keyboards regularly and doubt that I will ever need to build another. My waning interests in keyboards is a good thing. I became interested in ergonomic keyboard design because of my own hand issues. After several years and several thousand dollars, I'm finding that I can use my keyboard for hours painlessly and without even thinking about it. That should probably be the goal of every keyboard user.

[fruitalgorithm]

On my design, I keep the staggered layout because I think the IBM Models M and F are classic, and of desirable form. I desire to follow along in their stead.

This attitude represents the inertia in keyboard design pretty well. Model M and Fs are great keyboards no doubt. I don't believe that these ancient designs can't be massively improved on. The only reasons for the conventional staggered design is that it's been that way for a long time and people are used to it.

[RickCHodgin]

The only reasons for the conventional staggered design is that it's been that way for a long time and people are used to it.

Muscle memory is rather substantial. As chuckdee says above:

I tried to use a planck for several months, before giving up. The lack of the stagger instead of improving my productivity, reduced it.

I'm reminded of a line by Mark Harmon in a guest appearance as U.S. Secret Service Agent Simon Donovan on The West Wing (Season 3 Epsode 22, beginning around 23:00 in). He and C.J. are at the gun range for target practice. C.J. says, "You've got five bullets," and asks him to hit one dead center. If he fails she gets to have a little leeway in her close protection detail. He agrees. She realizes he must think he could do it, so she says put three in the middle. Harmon replies that he's worried about what he'll do with the other two because he'll be working against muscle memory.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin