Dell Quietkey vs Topre

[THATGUY69]

The other day I decided to spend some money and buy something I've always wanted to try, and that was a topre switch tester(55g). Whenever I finally got the switch, I started playing with it and realized I've felt that feeling before. It feels just like my Dell Quietkey (rt7d5jtw) from the mid 90s. Basically, the thing I'm most curious about is about how close does a full board and not just an single switch compare to a Quietkey? I don't want to shell out $200+ for a board if I have one pretty close already sitting at my house free of charge .

[IKSLM]

Well, any decent rubber dome keyboard will feel similar to topre (which is basically also a rubber dome), but it's the details that make a world of difference.

I also have several good quality rubber domes but still my two daily drivers (work and home) are topres (RF, 45g). Would not replace them for anything.

[Chyros]

I'd say there are two unique things that elevate Topre above other rubber dome boards; the fact that it's capacitive (which gives NKRO and more importantly partway actuation) and the sound (which some people really love). In terms of just keyfeel alone, I'd say Topre is really not THAT exciting, I know several other boards that feel just as good if not better.

[wobbled]

I'd say there are two unique things that elevate Topre above other rubber dome boards; the fact that it's capacitive (which gives NKRO and more importantly partway actuation) and the sound (which some people really love). In terms of just keyfeel alone, I'd say Topre is really not THAT exciting, I know several other boards that feel just as good if not better.

Well that's entirely down to personal preference and opinion. Compare topre to topre clones and you'll see just how high quality the topre domes really are.

[seebart]

Well that's entirely down to personal preference and opinion

As usual yes.

I'd say there are two unique things that elevate Topre above other rubber dome boards; the fact that it's capacitive (which gives NKRO and more importantly partway actuation) and the sound (which some people really love). In terms of just keyfeel alone, I'd say Topre is really not THAT exciting, I know several other boards that feel just as good if not better.

I'd say it's Topres build quality. I've never tried a Dell Quietkey but I cannot imagine it being higher quality.

[wobbled]

Dell Quietkey rubber domes actually are very high quality but they still feel like ass compared to topre. It's the lack of a rubber nub at the bottom of the domes on topres that make them feel so smooth. Seriously cut the bottom of the nubs off membrane rubber domes and you'll notice a huge improvement in feel (of course they wont actually work because they're not capacitive)

[seebart]

I'm talking about the whole package wobbled, not just the switches. I wonder how they hold up against BTC dome with slider?

[wobbled]

well in terms of feel BTC domes feel and sound a lot better and in terms of build quality I wasn't impressed with my dell quietkey. The case is made of ABS which insists on creeking if you put the slightest pressure on it and mine was yellowed to all hell which is only natural for old ABS I suppose. The 5100c I bought was NIB so it hasn't exactly stood the test of time but the case on that does feel solid yet is still light. Plus the membrane sheets on my quietkey had a crap load of corrosion on it and there was no sign of liquid damage anywhere else on the board.

[seebart]

well in terms of feel BTC domes feel and sound a lot better and in terms of build quality I wasn't impressed with my dell quietkey. The case is made of ABS which insists on creeking if you put the slightest pressure on it and mine was yellowed to all hell which is only natural for old ABS I suppose. The 5100c I bought was NIB so it hasn't exactly stood the test of time but the case on that does feel solid yet is still light. Plus the membrane sheets on my quietkey had a crap load of corrosion on it and there was no sign of liquid damage anywhere else on the board.

Alright thanks I pass on the Dell QK then, I got enough domes otherwise and my old Dell AT is all the Dell I need.

[Chyros]

I have both a NOS BTC 5100 and a NOS QuietKey. The BTC definitely wins, in every way actually.

I actually slightly prefer the keyfeel of BTCs to Topre, and BTC are arguably better built - not to mention they are MX compatible (which is kinda necessary because stock BTC caps are kinda crappy).

[seebart]

I have both a NOS BTC 5100 and a NOS QuietKey. The BTC definitely wins, in every way actually.

I actually slightly prefer the keyfeel of BTCs to Topre, and BTC are arguably better built - not to mention they are MX compatible (which is kinda necessary because stock BTC caps are kinda crappy).

BTC built better than Topre? No way. I cannot believe that. At least not the 5100 and 5100C I own and those two are not crappy by any means.

[wobbled]

Yeh Topre is definitely built better than any BTC I have ever used. The only good thing about some BTC's is the metal back plate but as long as the topre boards don't flex (which they don't) then the build quality is on par with those BTC's with the metal back plates. The topre domes are much higher quality than the BTC domes, you've got an actual capacitive PCB in there which the 5100c doesn't have, a spring underneath every dome, the assembly screwed together by a shit load of screws regardless of the topre board in question, and in the case of HHKB Pro 2's the case is made of PBT as well as all the keys except the space bar. There are also some topre boards with native MX sliders e.g. Novatouch and RGB topre boards, but MX sliders can now be bought for a very low price. Topre beats BTC in basically every way.

[Chyros]

Yeh Topre is definitely built better than any BTC I have ever used. The only good thing about some BTC's is the metal back plate but as long as the topre boards don't flex (which they don't) then the build quality is on par with those BTC's with the metal back plates. The topre domes are much higher quality than the BTC domes, you've got an actual capacitive PCB in there which the 5100c doesn't have, a spring underneath every dome, the assembly screwed together by a shit load of screws regardless of the topre board in question, and in the case of HHKB Pro 2's the case is made of PBT as well as all the keys except the space bar. There are also some topre boards with native MX sliders e.g. Novatouch and RGB topre boards, but MX sliders can now be bought for a very low price. Topre beats BTC in basically every way.

The springs in Topre switches don't add to the structural integrity of the board, nor do they do anything for keyfeel, they're just the capacitive element. Yes, the Topre is capacitive, like I mentioned that's basically its big selling point over other rubber domes, but BTCs have PCBs as well. As for the "quality" of the Topre domes; people keep going on about this, but is there any data on this at all? They could've been making them out of burnt spaghetti for all we know. I don't know what they make either domes out of, but I think the feel of BTCs is at least as good as Topre, possibly even better, and doubtlessly more tactile. And yes, the Topre case doesn't yellow, which is nice (BTCs yellow pretty badly), but PBT doesn't have great structural properties; it's much more likely to shatter than ABS is. And that's not counting the fact that any Topre board is VASTLY more expensive than any BTC board ever was, now or then. Yes, I'd say overall Topre boards are probably better than BTCs, if only because they're capacitive, but I think people are defending Topre purely BECAUSE it's expensive more than because of any of its specifications - thinking it must be good because they charge so much for it. In terms of specs, though, really, what's so abnormally good about Topre?


What I'm saying is that I've seen a LOT of 20-year-old BTCs at the recycling centre, dozens of them, and even the really rough ones tended to be fully operational and in surprisingly good nick. I'm not sure Topre boards would've fared better. At the very least I hope we can agree on that if you buy any board purely for its build quality, you wouldn't be buying Topre :p .

[wobbled]

I never implied that the springs made any difference in feel, I simply added them in to the list because those springs are another important part of the board (parts that cost money to produce) that the BTC's do not have. More went in to creating the topre keyboards so that to me makes them of a higher quality because they're not a simple layer of domes sitting on top of a membrane - the topres actually have a PCB, springs, domes, and interchangeable sliders.

Have you bothered opening up a HHKB or a realforce and lookedat the domes for yourself? Just by looking you can see a noticeable difference in quality of domes

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Iyo7DFKd8o4/U ... _2288b.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6wGTgy8.jpg

BTC domes looking cheap in comparison.

The BTC's will feel better to you because tactility is probably what you want from the switch more than anything else.
Overall feel of Topre is on a whole other level to BTC especially in terms of smoothness and if tactility is what you want my matured HHKB Pro 1 domes are far more tactile than BTC's and I'm guessing the 55g topre domes will feel similar to that. I suggest you try some of the stiffer topre domes if you haven't already. They are pretty great.

I'll still take a PBT or PVC case over an ABS case that is prone to yellowing, I'll just remind myself not to throw my HHKB pro 2 out the window in case it shatters. Apart from extreme drops like that, the PBT cases will hold up just fine. I treat my pro 2 pretty harshly and it's held up without any dents or scratches since 2012. Besides, the case on the HHKB is much thicker than that of my BTC, so I'd say the BTC was more prone to damage based on that alone.

BTC keyboards weren't exactly cheap back when they were sold new, granted they weren't close to the price of topre, but the fact topres are capacitive makes it inherently more expensive.

The oldest hhkb I have is a Pro 1 Rev A1 from 2003 (14 years old) and that's probably my favourite out of the 3 HHKB's I have - so build quality definitely hasn't let this board down yet. I have to disagree with the reasoning behind why people defend HHKB's - if people were defending it because they felt they have to after spending so much on that board they would've just sold it since they have great resale value. And no one would ever have more than one of them. I get you don't see what all the fuss is about and that's fine, we all have our own tastes and topre simpy isn't your cup of tea.

Hopefully we can both agree that they are good keyboards regardless of their price.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Basically this:

Thorpe Park.png (28.99 KiB) Viewed 6261 times

Give or take a load of accuracy. The scribble may be wrong but I can feel the difference.

Personally I really liked my not-actually-labelled-as-such QuietKey, but mine was a Silitek version (SK1000REW or whatever, I threw it away after I broke it trying to keep it alive, as it was wearing out — that was years ago).

[Chyros]

I never implied that the springs made any difference in feel, I simply added them in to the list because those springs are another important part of the board (parts that cost money to produce) that the BTC's do not have. More went in to creating the topre keyboards so that to me makes them of a higher quality because they're not a simple layer of domes sitting on top of a membrane - the topres actually have a PCB, springs, domes, and interchangeable sliders.

Have you bothered opening up a HHKB or a realforce and lookedat the domes for yourself? Just by looking you can see a noticeable difference in quality of domes

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Iyo7DFKd8o4/U ... _2288b.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6wGTgy8.jpg

BTC domes looking cheap in comparison.

The BTC's will feel better to you because tactility is probably what you want from the switch more than anything else.
Overall feel of Topre is on a whole other level to BTC especially in terms of smoothness and if tactility is what you want my matured HHKB Pro 1 domes are far more tactile than BTC's and I'm guessing the 55g topre domes will feel similar to that. I suggest you try some of the stiffer topre domes if you haven't already. They are pretty great.

I'll still take a PBT or PVC case over an ABS case that is prone to yellowing, I'll just remind myself not to throw my HHKB pro 2 out the window in case it shatters. Apart from extreme drops like that, the PBT cases will hold up just fine. I treat my pro 2 pretty harshly and it's held up without any dents or scratches since 2012. Besides, the case on the HHKB is much thicker than that of my BTC, so I'd say the BTC was more prone to damage based on that alone.

BTC keyboards weren't exactly cheap back when they were sold new, granted they weren't close to the price of topre, but the fact topres are capacitive makes it inherently more expensive.

The oldest hhkb I have is a Pro 1 Rev A1 from 2003 (14 years old) and that's probably my favourite out of the 3 HHKB's I have - so build quality definitely hasn't let this board down yet. I have to disagree with the reasoning behind why people defend HHKB's - if people were defending it because they felt they have to after spending so much on that board they would've just sold it since they have great resale value. And no one would ever have more than one of them. I get you don't see what all the fuss is about and that's fine, we all have our own tastes and topre simpy isn't your cup of tea.

Hopefully we can both agree that they are good keyboards regardless of their price.

I never said Topre isn't my cup of tea, just because I don't praise it blindly and to high heaven like most Topre users doesn't mean I don't like it :p . I'm just saying that I think Topre are defended mainly because of their high pricing, which makes people assume their stuff MUST be superior in some way. Or that the price must be justified somehow which it's really not. I mean, capsense technology is DIRT CHEAP nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised if they could price it at a tenth of their current cost and they'd still make a profit.

Yes, I've had my Realforce open several times. It's a fairly well-built board, but there's nothing there that made me think it's built tougher than a BTC. You might think the Topre domes are more expensive because they're shiny and opaque, but that doesn't mean anything, really. How can you possibly tell which rubber is better than another based purely on looks? They use compounded analytical techniques to judge quality of polymers in my field, and even then it's not always easy. And just because it's got more stuff in it is surely not necessarily an advantage - if I took a shit in a keyboard it's got a lot more in it, but that won't help it, really.

There's no way Topre are more tactile than BTC, it's simply not true. BTC domes have a much sharper tactile drop, it's instantly noticeable. Yes, I've tried all weightings of Topre, including 55 g. In fact I just busted it out again to try them out next to each other, and the Topre is pretty weakly tactile compared to BTC, actually. They're also not smoother; both don't have no noticeable amounts of scratchiness. Of course I'm comparing this between a NIB Realforce and several NIB BTC boards.

[seebart]

Well this got "intense". Regardless of the domes or any individual part of any keyboard I still maintain that in my opinion Topre keyboards are superior in overall build quality to BTC or Dell on any level. That does not mean I don't like BTC or Dell in fact in writing this on my Dell AT with SKCM Salmons and it's a very nice experience.

I would agree that Topre domes are not more tactile that BTC domes. Doesn't make them better or worse either. The domes in my BTC 5100 F&F are more tactile that those in my non F&F 5100C though.

[Chyros]

I wouldn't say it's intense at all, it's just a discussion xD .

[seebart]

I wouldn't say it's intense at all, it's just a discussion xD .

Well that's good to know. ;p

I think one point you mentioned is really important; Topre is not inherently a better product due to its crazy high price and yes it does have an image as such which is pretty pathetic just like the HHKB. Still very good keyboards though.

[wobbled]

Well if Topre was your cup of tea you wouldn't be comparing it to a BTC because the feel is still very different. Topres are smooth to the point of feeling linear after the tactile bump whereas BTC's still just feel like a high quality rubber dome (one massive tactile bump for the entirety of the actuation) which is obviously why it's more tactile.
Also 55g domes feel different depending on the board, plate mounted topre like those in the realforce feel more smooth as opposed to tactile whereas a HHKB 45g is on a similar level of tactility to a 55g plate mounted realforce at least from what I've felt. I've got some 55g domes in my HHKB and the tactility is greater than that of a BTC, as are the older more matured domes in one of my HHKB Pro 1's.

I still disagree entirely with your statement as to the reasons why people defend topre. I don't defend it because of the price I pay for it. I defend it because I genuinely like it, more so than anything BTC had to offer. Not saying I don't like BTC domes, they're probably some of the best rubber dome keyboards out there but I still truly believe topres are on a whole different level because as I stated before, they do not feel like traditional high quality rubber domes whereas the BTC's do.

Most boards cost a fraction of what they are sold for to produces o calling out out Topre on that isn't really relevant. Like I said earlier, BTC's were not cheap back in the day either and they're not even capacitive - so what was their excuse? Granted you can get them cheap now when used but you could probably get a HHKB for practically nothing through trades if you really wanted with all those boards you have stashed away. I bought a CM Storm novatouch from ebay used for £100 and traded that for a HHKB which is a great deal, they are only ridiculously overpriced if you buy them brand new which you rarely ever do.

As for the rubber domes, I think you can definitely visually see a difference in quality between BTC rubber domes and Topre rubber domes, but even more so in their feel. If you disagree that's fine, there's no real way to disprove either argument since both boards have stood the test of time, although if BTC's quality and feel was truly on the same level as topre more people would be switching to them. You even said in your review that the BTC's feel was not quite as good as topre, and that comes down primarily to the quality of the domes.

More went into the internal assembly of the keyboard, so yes that does make a difference to the overall build quality of the board. The internals are also held together a lot more securely than BTC's from what I can see in front of me. Not to mention the BTC's cable is permanently attached, they have cheap flipout feet with only one level of elevation, and in the case of the 5100c they have non standard keycaps on some rows that are not possible to replace whereas topre boards can have slider transplants to standard MX and stock topre keycaps are readily available if you want to go that route.

Perhaps you should have multiple topres with multiple dome weightings as well as multiple BTC boards in front of you to make a more accurate comparison? I've used every weighting of topre and both case mounted, and plate mounted topre including a 65g korean dome sheet, and for 55g and 65g's in a HHKB (not a realforce) I find the HHKB to be more tactile than the BTC's though I tend to stick to 45g because tactility isn't really what the feel of topre comes down to.

BTC's don't have chance to be smooth, they are a basic rubber dome keyboard. After the dome actuates you instantly bottom out. With topres you feel the travel a lot more and actually notice the smoothness.

Hopefully with all this typing I'm making you do you'll be able to have a very good idea of your current keyboards feel for your next review Looking forward to that vid btw

[Sangdrax]

Has anybody ever tried frankensteining a BTC 5100 and 5100C together with Topre springs and domes? Worst case you'd have to hook up a xwhatsit controller for the right voltage settings if the switching is borked with the original 5100 controller.

That would dead 100% allow the most direct comparison between switches in a blind test.

The domes in my BTC 5100 F&F are more tactile that those in my non F&F 5100C though.

My 5100's rubber sleeves have kinda iffy tactility except for the spacebar. You can feel it, but the travel is like half of the 5100C so by the time you hit the sponge you don't have hardly any travel past the bump. Feels more like a force ramp at the bottom of a short throw. I wonder if the more worn and flattened ones are better in that regard. While my 5100C is super snappy. Though it's some OEM board and not the regular version. SIIG I think, it's dark gray.

[Chyros]

Well if Topre was your cup of tea you wouldn't be comparing it to a BTC because the feel is still very different. Topres are smooth to the point of feeling linear after the tactile bump whereas BTC's still just feel like a high quality rubber dome (one massive tactile bump for the entirety of the actuation) which is obviously why it's more tactile.
Also 55g domes feel different depending on the board, plate mounted topre like those in the realforce feel more smooth as opposed to tactile whereas a HHKB 45g is on a similar level of tactility to a 55g plate mounted realforce at least from what I've felt. I've got some 55g domes in my HHKB and the tactility is greater than that of a BTC, as are the older more matured domes in one of my HHKB Pro 1's.

I still disagree entirely with your statement as to the reasons why people defend topre. I don't defend it because of the price I pay for it. I defend it because I genuinely like it, more so than anything BTC had to offer. Not saying I don't like BTC domes, they're probably some of the best rubber dome keyboards out there but I still truly believe topres are on a whole different level because as I stated before, they do not feel like traditional high quality rubber domes whereas the BTC's do.

Most boards cost a fraction of what they are sold for to produces o calling out out Topre on that isn't really relevant. Like I said earlier, BTC's were not cheap back in the day either and they're not even capacitive - so what was their excuse? Granted you can get them cheap now when used but you could probably get a HHKB for practically nothing through trades if you really wanted with all those boards you have stashed away. I bought a CM Storm novatouch from ebay used for £100 and traded that for a HHKB which is a great deal, they are only ridiculously overpriced if you buy them brand new which you rarely ever do.

As for the rubber domes, I think you can definitely visually see a difference in quality between BTC rubber domes and Topre rubber domes, but even more so in their feel. If you disagree that's fine, there's no real way to disprove either argument since both boards have stood the test of time, although if BTC's quality and feel was truly on the same level as topre more people would be switching to them. You even said in your review that the BTC's feel was not quite as good as topre, and that comes down primarily to the quality of the domes.

More went into the internal assembly of the keyboard, so yes that does make a difference to the overall build quality of the board. The internals are also held together a lot more securely than BTC's from what I can see in front of me. Not to mention the BTC's cable is permanently attached, they have cheap flipout feet with only one level of elevation, and in the case of the 5100c they have non standard keycaps on some rows that are not possible to replace whereas topre boards can have slider transplants to standard MX and stock topre keycaps are readily available if you want to go that route.

Perhaps you should have multiple topres with multiple dome weightings as well as multiple BTC boards in front of you to make a more accurate comparison? I've used every weighting of topre and both case mounted, and plate mounted topre including a 65g korean dome sheet, and for 55g and 65g's in a HHKB (not a realforce) I find the HHKB to be more tactile than the BTC's though I tend to stick to 45g because tactility isn't really what the feel of topre comes down to.

BTC's don't have chance to be smooth, they are a basic rubber dome keyboard. After the dome actuates you instantly bottom out. With topres you feel the travel a lot more and actually notice the smoothness.

Hopefully with all this typing I'm making you do you'll be able to have a very good idea of your current keyboards feel for your next review Looking forward to that vid btw

Thank you for your views. I still disagree with you of course, but it's been very interesting hearing your perspective. It's cool to see how someone else regards this switch - you're clearly approaching this from a whole different angle than me, and I'm starting to understand what some people like so much in the switch now. Because it's such a unique switch with so many different aspects to it, I guess it makes sense that people focus on different aspects of the switch. This further explains why the switch is so divisive (although I'm probably actually somewhere in the middle of the two camps - I like them a fair bit, but don't worship them).

Your comments will be used in a video I've got coming up in the pipeline!

[seebart]

Has anybody ever tried frankensteining a BTC 5100 and 5100C together with Topre springs and domes? Worst case you'd have to hook up a xwhatsit controller for the right voltage settings if the switching is borked with the original 5100 controller.

That would dead 100% allow the most direct comparison between switches in a blind test.

Yes I'd like to see that comparison!

My 5100's rubber sleeves have kinda iffy tactility except for the spacebar. You can feel it, but the travel is like half of the 5100C so by the time you hit the sponge you don't have hardly any travel past the bump. Feels more like a force ramp at the bottom of a short throw. I wonder if the more worn and flattened ones are better in that regard. While my 5100C is super snappy. Though it's some OEM board and not the regular version. SIIG I think, it's dark gray.

Interesting, the domes in my 5100 feel "snappier" than those in 5100C but that cannot have anything to do with the F&F.

I like them a fair bit, but don't worship them).

Same here. If I had to pick switches to "worship" the list would be short and Topre would not be on that list!

[DustGod]

This ended quite constructively

[seebart]

56385516.jpg (100.62 KiB) Viewed 6037 times