Strange keyboard find

[rich1051414]

I found a keyboard a while back that arrived today. I couldn't find any information on it, and it only suspeciously meantioned 'mechanical' in the title, but the actual keyboard in the picture looked very interesting.

Well, it arrived today, and the 30 bucks I paid for it was a steal. The keyboard uses monterey switches, and has a trackball integrated, and is made by 'KME'. The keyboard came inside it's original box, which simply had the word 'Keyboard' on it.

Here's some pictures:

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DSC_0492.JPG (1.94 MiB) Viewed 7553 times

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Those aren't Monterey switches. It's some kind of Alps clone, but I can't get any sort of an idea from a picture that small and dark.

[rich1051414]

Those aren't Monterey switches. It's some kind of Alps clone, but I can't get any sort of an idea from a picture that small and dark.

I'll take closer pics if you would like. They use the same style shell, and they felt like it. Possibly AK-C5? They aren't stiff like the ivory ones.

DSC_0495[1].JPG (1.96 MiB) Viewed 7525 times

Sorry for the nastiness, I haven't had time to clean the keyboard yet.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I don't recognise the mould numbering at all. The only way to guess is to take one apart. Possibly it's branded on the bottom, although Alps clones are seldom branded anywhere. Could be something new, or it could be a known type using a different mould.

[rich1051414]

K, I'll do that tonight when taking it apart for cleaning. The C1 button in the above picture is messed up anyway, so it'll be a good chance to see. They feel very nice for a clone, I could of swore they were Monterrey, so whatever it is, good clone. The fact the C1 is bad though suggests they aren't reliable.

They are more delicate feeling than authentic alps, but the click is much louder.

[Polecat]

I found a keyboard a while back that arrived today. I couldn't find any information on it, and it only suspeciously meantioned 'mechanical' in the title, but the actual keyboard in the picture looked very interesting.

Well, it arrived today, and the 30 bucks I paid for it was a steal. The keyboard uses monterey switches, and has a trackball integrated, and is made by 'KME'. The keyboard came inside it's original box, which simply had the word 'Keyboard' on it.

I was just looking at one of those online a week or two back, but I can't find it now. Maybe it's the same one? But I think the one I saw had a yellow trackball. The duplicate mouse buttons (C1 C2 C3) are distinctive. I tried searching "keymouse" from the FCC code, but all I found were a bunch of newer ergo boards and a couple oldies from Focus (FK-7000P) that weren't even close. But there were rebranded Focus boards that used the Keymouse name.

[arkanoid]

I found a keyboard a while back that arrived today. I couldn't find any information on it, and it only suspeciously meantioned 'mechanical' in the title, but the actual keyboard in the picture looked very interesting.

Well, it arrived today, and the 30 bucks I paid for it was a steal. The keyboard uses monterey switches, and has a trackball integrated, and is made by 'KME'. The keyboard came inside it's original box, which simply had the word 'Keyboard' on it.

I was just looking at one of those online a week or two back, but I can't find it now. Maybe it's the same one? But I think the one I saw had a yellow trackball. The duplicate mouse buttons (C1 C2 C3) are distinctive. I tried searching "keymouse" from the FCC code, but all I found were a bunch of newer ergo boards and a couple oldies from Focus (FK-7000P) that weren't even close. But there were rebranded Focus boards that used the Keymouse name.

Try searching for Keytrak.

[rich1051414]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teclado-De-Com ... 7675.l2557

This is the same keyboard. The box is also the same

[rich1051414]

Here's some pictures.

The only identifying marker on the PCB, and various other pics of the board:

DSC_0496.JPG (3.87 MiB) Viewed 7387 times

DSC_0499.JPG (3.14 MiB) Viewed 7387 times

Trackball circuitry:

DSC_0497.JPG (3.58 MiB) Viewed 7387 times

And here is the switch broke down. Daniel was right, it was not the switch style I thought it was.

DSC_0501.JPG (3.57 MiB) Viewed 7387 times

DSC_0500.JPG (3.6 MiB) Viewed 7387 times

The bottom of the switch has no branding at all, and a pinhole dead in the center.

The reason the C1 key was messed up is now obvious. The click leaf buckled. However, it uses full sized alps click leafs. However, the foil is VERY thin, which explains why it both feels more delicate and is louder to boot. Also why the click leaf buckled in the first place.

I want to point out these keys have that characteristic thunk to them attributed to early white alps and blue alps. However, even though the start of the actuation seems to take less force, the bottom falls out of them even harsher. They feel VERY binary, more so than authentic alps, but I am unsure about the weighting. They feel lighter, but I don't know if that is because of the really thin click leafs. I would really like to know what this switch is, because I am digging it. I am upset, however, that it, of course, is a nightmare to reassemble because the top housing is what keeps the switch parts separated.

The switch seems to be one that might polarize people though. It is quite in your face with how they only like to be in 2 positions, unactuated or actuated.

I made a sound clip to express what I am talking about with the sound. The first is early white alps, the second is this unknown clone. You can hear the unknown clone has a fuller louder sound. Interesting. It is not due to the case it is in either, I replaced the C1 key with an authentic alps, and I noticed it immediately.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vpT9p ... A1nrkMpd3J

Sorry for the link, DT doesn't allow the extension.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That really is strange.

The only known [wiki]four-tab clone[/wiki] for which the internals are a match, is Tai-Hao APC series.

Also, the dates on that are 1990, which would be extremely early for Alps clones. It seems Tai-Hao Aruz came out around 1989, and Tai-Hao APC came out a year or two later. This will be the earliest Alps clone keyboard confirmed to date. The switches could be original APC — old APC switches were branded "APC" for a year or two before the branding was removed.

However, that's not APC mould numbering, which is always mould+cavity, top-left, in condensed sans serif type. Since the two major clone brands were Himake and Tai-Hao, and they collaborated on Aruz (and both brands can be found on them), this could be a very early Himake using Tai-Hao parts.

Those aren't that hard to reassemble though.

[rich1051414]

That really is strange.

The only known [wiki]four-tab clone[/wiki] for which the internals are a match, is Tai-Hao APC series.

Also, the dates on that are 1990, which would be extremely early for Alps clones. It seems Tai-Hao Aruz came out around 1989, and Tai-Hao APC came out a year or two later. This will be the earliest Alps clone keyboard confirmed to date. The switches could be original APC — old APC switches were branded "APC" for a year or two before the branding was removed.

However, that's not APC mould numbering, which is always mould+cavity, top-left, in condensed sans serif type. Since the two major clone brands were Himake and Tai-Hao, and they collaborated on Aruz (and both brands can be found on them), this could be a very early Himake using Tai-Hao parts.

Those aren't that hard to reassemble though.

True, I have seen them much more difficult. At least these have enough bulk to make alignment easier. I also updated the last post with an audio clip, whatever these clones are I am digging.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I have a keyboard with OA2 switches (the Himake equivalent) in an NTC KB-6153EN, and they too have a very "dry" sound, with no reverberation. I much prefer the sound of my Monterey K102, with heavy reverb (and blue Alps).

My OA2 switches feel similar to white Alps — not as light or smooth or easy to press as blue Alps. The click leaves in those seemed perfectly sturdy though.

I only have a few old APC switches (a strange green slider model, and APC branded) and the click leaves in those seemed normal too. I'm not aware of thin click leaves in any clones.

If the switch is still take apart, I'm interested to see the front of the stationary contact, just to verify if it's the same as APC.

[rich1051414]

I had to track down my macro lenses so I could get in close for detail. This is actually a different, fully working switch. I tossed the malfunctioning one. Even after fixing the leaf, it wouldn't work right.

DSC_0503[1].JPG (3.57 MiB) Viewed 7342 times

DSC_0502[1].JPG (3.59 MiB) Viewed 7342 times

It seems to match up with the 'old' style of the OA2 unless I misunderstood the wiki.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Don't throw away the switch. At the very least, preserve it for posterity. You can also salvage a click leaf from another switch — for example I have a muddy, melted keyboard that nonetheless has a load of working white Alps switches, and I think I can class my 6153 as scrap now that I've broken a switch beyond repair, and from that I have a spare click leaf somewhere from the switch that broke. I'm sure someone closer to you has a spare click leaf. The wide click leaves are all interchangeable.

As for the switch, it's definitely not OA2.

The stationary contact lacks the semicircular cut-out below the dimple common to that family, and the clearance notch is rectangular instead of trapezoid. The plating stripe in OA2 can go both ways it seems; mine have it vertical, but it can also be horizontal.

However, the strengthening pressings within the movable contact are rough, while they're typically a much more precise shape in the images we have of Tai-Hao switches of various ages. This may be supplier-dependent, as my suspicion is that the metal stampings were outsourced. I should enquire about that, as it's a long-standing mystery.

The contact dimple is also fully rounded instead of flat at the front in APC.

It's not conclusively anything, but it's much closer to Tai-Hao APC than OA2.

[rich1051414]

This? wiki/File:Alps.tw_Type_OA3_--_APC_brand ... k_leaf.jpg

Yes, I notice that the plating is running the wrong direction. Interesting.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That's one of them, but APC switches have remained pretty consistent since they were introduced. The main changes are: removal of the branding; use of a narrow phosphor bronze click leaf; reduction in size of the stationary contact.

The Himake-style switches have so many variations in parts, mouldings and markings, that we can't conclusively determine whether they're even all from the same manufacturer. Many of the characteristics overlap, though, which is why it seems to be the same product range. The problem is getting enough people to submit dating evidence, because the various designs should be specific to time periods; if not, then either there were multiple manufacturers (maybe using the communal tooling that Edgar Matias mentioned) or multiple factories working for Himake.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Oh yes, what does the inside of a keycap look like? They could be Tai-Hao.

[rich1051414]

Oh yes, what does the inside of a keycap look like? They could be Tai-Hao.

They look like pad printed Tai-Hao, very thin ABS. I can take a picture if you want.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

If they were double-shot it would be conclusive. However, it would be interesting to see the exact thickness as that may suggest whose tooling it used. See diagram at [wiki]Tai-Hao TI series[/wiki].

[rich1051414]

If they were double-shot it would be conclusive. However, it would be interesting to see the exact thickness as that may suggest whose tooling it used. See diagram at [wiki]Tai-Hao TI series[/wiki].

Here it is

DSC_0505[1].JPG (3.65 MiB) Viewed 7288 times

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That seems to rule out it being a Tai-Hao OEM product.

[Polecat]

Ortek with what may be the same switch type:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ortek-MCK-101F ... #ht_56wt_0

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ortek keyboards often have interesting clone types, but getting anyone here to actually inspect theirs … not gonna happen. The path to understanding clones is a dead end until people start making an effort to add the needed data to the pool.

But yes, the one on eBay may well be the same, which is curious, since until now that type has seemingly never been seen before. However, we won't get the dates off that either, unless anyone's ever figured out their serial number format ... and we need more dates to get an idea of that in the first place.

Trying to conduct research in the keyboard community is completely exasperating, to the point of despair.

[Polecat]

Ortek keyboards often have interesting clone types, but getting anyone here to actually inspect theirs … not gonna happen. The path to understanding clones is a dead end until people start making an effort to add the needed data to the pool.

But yes, the one on eBay may well be the same, which is curious, since until now that type has seemingly never been seen before. However, we won't get the dates off that either, unless anyone's ever figured out their serial number format ... and we need more dates to get an idea of that in the first place.

Trying to conduct research in the keyboard community is completely exasperating, to the point of despair.

Sorry I can't afford to buy it to find out. There's another example of the same model on ebay for about half the price, but that one says China (vs. Thailand) and no photos of the switches. And the serial number isn't even close, probably a different format. The only Ortek I have is an 84 key mini, with simplified Alps (simple numbering), so no help there.

[rich1051414]

Ortek keyboards often have interesting clone types, but getting anyone here to actually inspect theirs … not gonna happen. The path to understanding clones is a dead end until people start making an effort to add the needed data to the pool.

But yes, the one on eBay may well be the same, which is curious, since until now that type has seemingly never been seen before. However, we won't get the dates off that either, unless anyone's ever figured out their serial number format ... and we need more dates to get an idea of that in the first place.

Trying to conduct research in the keyboard community is completely exasperating, to the point of despair.

For what it is worth, the micro controllers and the crystal oscillator on the PCB are all dated various weeks in 1990. That doesn't mean anything except it is at least that young, though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yours I've already checked. However, we need far more data to gain any confidence about the manufacturing timespan for any switch type. This then needs to be catalogued for analysis. Even if you discount the database notion, there is still [wiki]Keyboards and switches by year[/wiki]. One or two examples alone are simply insufficient to work from, and that's especially true with the 5 M lifetime switches that Ortek favoured (T5 and T8 types).

[rich1051414]

I wish people would take the time to document their boards when it is made clear people want to know. Personally I am excited to help expand knowledge if I happen upon something rare and lacking information. However, I doubt I could find the deals I could find if certain rare keyboards had adequate documentation on what they actually are. xD

As far as this keyboard is concerned, I am tempted to hand it off to make stock keyboard sound effects, it has such a deep and rich vintage sound to it.

Speaking of which, just so I can learn something, is it normal for the steel to be so overworked (I assume from rolling the steel) that the crystal structure of the steel is visible? I have never noticed it before on other leafs, but I have also not took macro shots of them.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I can't say I've ever noticed the click leaf look like that before … might explain why it got busted.

From your recording, that keyboard sounds fairly ordinary. I have to wonder what else you have if that sounds special. However, it may be that all the low frequency sounds are lost from the recording, as can happen.

Loads of people here have or had Ortek keyboards, but the total knowledge gained from them to date is nearly zero.

[rich1051414]

Yes, it doesn't do it justice. I used a headset to record it, but the reference(first one) is that of early white alps, and I was hoping the difference would come through, but perhaps not. I wouldn't of went through the trouble though if I didn't think it was something special about the switch. Maybe one day I will actually invest in a decent microphone.

Regardless, that is such a subjective thing it doesn't really even belong here anyway, just an anecdote. As far as the leafs go, they have very little stiffness to them, kind of floppy and cheap feeling. They are actually not that much thinner than regular leafs, but the steel is definitely inferior, which queued by question about the visible crystal structure.

[rich1051414]

Just an update. I have not been able to get the trackball to work at all. I have used a serial to PS/2 converters connected to several PS/2 to USB active adapters, but I cannot get it to recognize the trackball as a mouse. I have also tried connecting naively to the PS/2 port with a breakout cable, but still, no dice.

I don't know if I am doing it wrong or what, but for now I am going to assume the trackball section does not work.