Topre misbihaving after 4th lube job why ??

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

05 Apr 2018, 18:17

Hi guys,

After experiencing this problem for a fourth time i decided to ask for help as i can't figure out the reason for it happening.

The board is re lubed it with a mixture of SuperLube oil; partnumber 51004 and SuperLube grease partnumber 21030. Checked if the Hypersphere rings were ok and everything seems ok. But after a while this happens so i already swapped the cmd key (windows) dome with an other one.. and it keeps returning. the letter i is also misbehaving.

The lube and oil where recomended to me by Hypersphere and it seems ok for the most part.
But i did notice that i dries up after a few weeks that's strange..
So i will be buying sum "Tribosys" lube from meykeyboard.eu
Not cheap at €12,50 for 5ml plus shipping..

if anyone can tell me what's going on here with my topre board i would appreciate it..
next time i'l try to film opening up the board. for now here is the youtube link.
https://youtu.be/2v9Bd83spCY
Spoiler:
Screen Shot 2018-04-05 at 18.18.18.png
my FC660C
Screen Shot 2018-04-05 at 18.18.18.png (713.57 KiB) Viewed 1669 times

User avatar
Myoth

05 Apr 2018, 18:21

what do you mean by misbehaving ? if it's not actuating or anything like that : usually when that happens you've just put your board together badly and that something is not placed right, aligner right or something of the sort ... so open it up and align everything in the most perfect way there is

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

05 Apr 2018, 18:25

Myoth wrote: what do you mean by misbehaving ? if it's not actuating or anything like that : usually when that happens you've just put your board together badly and that something is not placed right, aligner right or something of the sort ... so open it up and align everything in the most perfect way there is

because it hard to explain i posted a short clip of me typing on the window key and i key ..
https://youtu.be/2v9Bd83spCY

it's actuating nothing wrong there but it feels strange and sounds awful.

User avatar
Myoth

05 Apr 2018, 18:32

That must be the dome which is wrongly/badly placed, I had this same problem on my Novatouch after having to swap a dome because it was broken (nothing looks wrong with it, it's just ..... linear), Topre is really capricious on this sort of thing. I'd strongly suggest opening it up again and trying to be as cautious and meticulous as possible.

User avatar
wobbled

05 Apr 2018, 19:05

Yep just swap the dome under the windows key with one that you're not having problems with, if the problem goes away on the windows key but arises on the key you put that dome under, then it's the dome at fault. If the problem goes away entirely, the positioning of the dome was off.
Nice looking board btw

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

05 Apr 2018, 22:24

Just on a side note..

Could this problem have anything to do with the lube/ oil i used ??

( SuperLube oil; partnumber 51004 and SuperLube grease partnumber 21030)

the reason why i mixed a dab of grease in the oil was hoping that i wouldn't dry-out as fast as it does..
the amount of SuperLube grease is really insignificant but i still wanted to mention it..btw it feels awesome on the rest of the board..So it's only these two keys so i guess your right i hope it's just misplacement..

i tried searching on how to safely remove SuperLube oil and Grease from plastic but that seems to be hard to do :shock:

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

05 Apr 2018, 22:27

wobbled wrote: Yep just swap the dome under the windows key with one that you're not having problems with, if the problem goes away on the windows key but arises on the key you put that dome under, then it's the dome at fault. If the problem goes away entirely, the positioning of the dome was off.
Nice looking board btw

Thanks good tip.. will do that and keep a close watch.. nice one..thx love the board...
the Hasu controller is the real king here ..every board should have one ahhaha....

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

06 Apr 2018, 15:33

So i just finished opening my FC660C two times...pffff

the window key (normally alt key, swapped them) is now ok.. the letter i was 7th key from the right was a big sheet so nothing i could there without having to remove the entire sheet. :o
so i touched the sides of the dome hoping that would help..


one strange thing i did notice , when i place the board with domes back on the sliders being as careful as i can be.. the screw hole's don't align 100% so i end up moving my board when it's laying flat on the sliders that could be the reason why i'm experiencing problems.
Don't know how to avoid that..

i have a standing desk so i raise the desk up while i put the domes back on top making sure everything is aligned..
Strange..

Secure between two tins...
Spoiler:
opening_topre_1.jpg
secure between two tins
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Putting back a couple domes that are loose incl the misbehaving window key..
Spoiler:
opening_topre_2.JPG
dome placement
opening_topre_2.JPG (1.95 MiB) Viewed 1536 times

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

08 Apr 2018, 11:53

so it's bin 2 days (weekend)..i haven't spend that much time behind the keyboard..
And what do i notice now the letter n has the same problem my windows key had.
if you don't recall here is the youtube link showing what i mean..
https://youtu.be/2v9Bd83spCY

Conclusion i'm the problem clearly i haven't touched the n key dome and yet it suffers from the same problem..
Dam Topre is sensitive.. pff i'm so happy that i invested in a soldering iron. and desoldering station that will arrive soon.
Cant wait to get busy modding and building my own board with mx style switches that confirm to my needs. tactile like mx-clear but cleaner smoother and a tad lighter , bit heavier than mx-brown.. and so the journey starts ,,once more in to the keyboard breach..

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

08 Apr 2018, 17:44

The Topre nightmare continues i spend a good part of the day trying to fix my Topre keyboard without any luck..
Since the letter N and I started to misbehave , aka not feeling right and making strange noises i decided to pull the sheet from the board :shock:

I then preceded to carefully place the two large sheets and the smaller individual domes back making sure everything lines up correctly..Placed all the springs back...and started to screw in the silver screws and a couple of the black ones and i decided to test i there where any problems?? :|

Well there was don't recall which key but one sounded absolutely awful i could even hear the spring..
So i reopened everything the only problem i could detect was that the two domes looked like thy didn't fit 100% no matter what i did they seem to be larger an overlapping at the top.. where both sheets meet..just the top..
Also every time i place the pcb back the screw holes don't align perfectly and then i need to lift the pcb up so it aligns perfectly ..that could be contributing to the problem...
The same thing happened the first couple of times when practically all domes where still glued to the pcb..

So final result.. i GAVE UP !!! i placed the domes back.. left the springs in a cup screwed all the damn screws back so i wouldn't loose them put my hasu controller in a ESD save bag and the board back in its box..

Im now typing on my to heavy mx-clear board.. thank god for cherry...i truly hope modding cherry isn't as difficult as TOPRE ..

So i could really use someone's help / advice.. should i cut sum corners where the dome sheet meet so that there is no overlap ? what am i doing wrong.. i was going to order sum BKE Redux Domes but to be honest i'm starting to get frustrated with Topre.. and i did spend loads of cash on this board and the controller..i think were well past the $300 mark.. adding the hypersphere rings plus superlube grease and superlube oil..pfff....

Help !! :(

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User avatar
Laser
emacs -nw

08 Apr 2018, 21:52

I'd say - first, don't panic. Second, wait and cool off, put it aside for a day if needed, you need patience for this. Then, try *again*, with no hurry, and test with both the original and Hasu's controller, to isolate the issue (to make sure it's not a controller problem). If it fails, try again, same advice as above.

I think almost everytime I disassembled a Topre keyboard, after putting it back, there were one or two keys that didn't work. I just noted their positions, disassembled it again, and re-arranged those springs and domes. If you had more springs than needed, make sure you don't have two of them stuck onto each other (sometimes you can miss seeing that).

If your Topre stems don't fall from the top case/plate, you could also try to place the springs and domes on the PCB as centered and as carefully as possible, with the PCB placed normally (not upside down), then come from the above with the Topre stems-top-case/plate on the domes to close the sandwich.

Maybe watch again some Topre assembling tutorials, who knows, maybe you are doing something a little wrong.

Also tighten the screws little by little, moving between them so that the pressure gets build up uniformly all along the kbd surface.

User avatar
002
Topre Enthusiast

09 Apr 2018, 05:49

Good advice above -- especially with regards to tightening screws. I usually alternate between left side and right side when doing the screws and don't over-tighten; as soon as the screw touches the PCB I give it a very gentle twist and that's it.

The other thing I was thinking about when you mentioned the overlap of the domes...are you sure that those large 5 x 4 integrated sheets can't be rotated and placed on the other side? Maybe you have them on the wrong side or around the wrong way which is why the rubber is overlapping whereas from the factory they surely would have cut the sheets so there'd be no overlap. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. I'd offer to try and fix it up for you but it might be a bit cost prohibitive given the distance between us.

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

09 Apr 2018, 11:40

Laser wrote: I'd say - first, don't panic. Second, wait and cool off, put it aside for a day if needed, you need patience for this. Then, try *again*, with no hurry, and test with both the original and Hasu's controller, to isolate the issue (to make sure it's not a controller problem). If it fails, try again, same advice as above.

I think almost everytime I disassembled a Topre keyboard, after putting it back, there were one or two keys that didn't work. I just noted their positions, disassembled it again, and re-arranged those springs and domes. If you had more springs than needed, make sure you don't have two of them stuck onto each other (sometimes you can miss seeing that).

If your Topre stems don't fall from the top case/plate, you could also try to place the springs and domes on the PCB as centered and as carefully as possible, with the PCB placed normally (not upside down), then come from the above with the Topre stems-top-case/plate on the domes to close the sandwich.

Maybe watch again some Topre assembling tutorials, who knows, maybe you are doing something a little wrong.

Also tighten the screws little by little, moving between them so that the pressure gets build up uniformly all along the kbd surface.
i hear you.. i did panic / get frustrated with the whole process somewhat.
One thing i wanted to ad all keys work just fine no problems there so the controller is in no way the problem.
it's really the feel and sound the keys make.. i can imitatively tell the domes or springs are not 100% correctly aligned or something. Clearly if i knew the what the problem was i would try to fix it.

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

09 Apr 2018, 11:51

002 wrote: Good advice above -- especially with regards to tightening screws. I usually alternate between left side and right side when doing the screws and don't over-tighten; as soon as the screw touches the PCB I give it a very gentle twist and that's it.

The other thing I was thinking about when you mentioned the overlap of the domes...are you sure that those large 5 x 4 integrated sheets can't be rotated and placed on the other side? Maybe you have them on the wrong side or around the wrong way which is why the rubber is overlapping whereas from the factory they surely would have cut the sheets so there'd be no overlap. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. I'd offer to try and fix it up for you but it might be a bit cost prohibitive given the distance between us.
Thanks @Laser @002 i really appreciate your help..

That was my first instinct as well the sheet's in the middle must be not in the correct spot.
So i turned them around swapped them but still not perfect..
guess this is going to take a few hours to really see what's going on and dive in to it...

i will try to find a day this week and attempt it again...This is really harder than i imagined it would be.. perhaps i'l try to film the hole process so you can see what i'm doing wrong..


i pretty much watched all the vids on youtube that mention opening up a topre board.
And in my humble opinion the best one is from DT hahah..
that's also the method i use.. exactly ..
https://youtu.be/l3HhDMS-nNE

ah well nothing to do ...but try it all again will keep you informed maybe tomorrow or the day after at the most.
just need to take a brake form it all.pfff

User avatar
Laser
emacs -nw

09 Apr 2018, 11:54

Also, there are some people that didn't like their Topres after lubing them! So it may be either that, or the fact that putting silencing rings does remove a little of the tactility. Or, a combination of both. Maybe you are experiencing that?

If all fails, sell it, or trade it :P

User avatar
wobbled

09 Apr 2018, 13:38

Or ship it to one of us to fix it

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

09 Apr 2018, 14:47

Laser wrote: Also, there are some people that didn't like their Topres after lubing them! So it may be either that, or the fact that putting silencing rings does remove a little of the tactility. Or, a combination of both. Maybe you are experiencing that?

If all fails, sell it, or trade it :P

i absolutely love the feel of the rings and the lube..
besides a couple of keys misbehaving everything is perfect..
i would even go further and admit after the first time i lubed and put in the rings.. before i started to notice a couple of keys where sounding strange and feeling strange like the domes where not 100% i posted a youtube vid on this.
https://youtu.be/2v9Bd83spCY

i was going on a rant how easy it was to mod Topre and how awesome it felt afterwards. And that people should stop buying mx style switches if they weren't hotswap.. That's going a bit far .. where am i now??
Well i ordered a TS100 soldering iron with chisel tip (TS-D24) and a Aoyue 474 (old model without the ++) desoldering station.

hahaha not that i'm abandoning Topre wanted to do more with keyboards for years now..

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

09 Apr 2018, 14:49

wobbled wrote: Or ship it to one of us to fix it

i will film my final attempt and post it on youtube for you guys to judge what i'm doing wrong..
And if i can't fix it.. That would be a shame because i do want to tryout the bke domes..but i will then send it to a Topre doctor one of you gentleman that kindly offered to fix it en help me out. Really appreciate it ..

but i really hope i can fix it..

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

10 Apr 2018, 22:32

Just finished my third or fifth attempt to align the domes without success so again I'm putting the domes in without springs screwing the silver screws in and calling it a day 1,5 hours down the drain... getting fed up with topre grrrrrrrrr


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
wobbled

10 Apr 2018, 22:56

I wonder what it is that you're doing wrong, I cut up some original BKE domes last night from a Sony video editing system and stuck them in my HHKB with full success on my first go. Maybe wash all your sliders and housings free from all lube and start again with it? My offer to fix it for you is still there too :)

User avatar
TuxKey
LLAP

15 Apr 2018, 18:47

wobbled wrote: I wonder what it is that you're doing wrong, I cut up some original BKE domes last night from a Sony video editing system and stuck them in my HHKB with full success on my first go. Maybe wash all your sliders and housings free from all lube and start again with it? My offer to fix it for you is still there too :)

Thanks mate.. i appreciate it..for now i'm back on my mx-clear board..and given Topre a rest..
i really don't think it has anything to do with the oil or the lube it's not like i'm using crap that can damage rubber or plastic were talking good save brand oils and grease..superlube...
But not all switches suffer from this it's a different switch each time so it's probably me..

Also it takes 2 days before problems start presenting .. so i think it's that the domes or domes and spring are not 100% placed i don't know after this try i will film the whole placement process in 2 or 3 parts and post them all on youtube..
After that i hope someone can tell me what's wrong..
if i can't fix it then i'l sell the damm thing..but to be honest with the amount of $$ i put in to it i don't think someone else wants to pay for it..i mean hypersphere rings, hasu controller ..import fees.. so i'm stuck with the damn thing..
and if i have to spend another €50 for diffrent domes to see if that helps well than this is going to be the most expensive topre board ever..

User avatar
wobbled

15 Apr 2018, 19:06

The fact it takes 2 days before the problems start makes me think it could be the hypersphere rings working their way up the slider (not sitting at the bottom of the slider where they belong) that usually creates problems with the feel of the switches. Try take the hypersphere rings off of the keys that have the problem and see if the board is stable for the next few days.
If that turns out to be the problem I can send you a few Silence-X rings to replace the hypersphere rings that are having the problem. or you could try gluing them to the bottom of the slider somehow. Let me know how you get on when you can be assed messing with topre again :lol:

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