How many snapped rivets is too many snapped rivets for a Model M?

[apastuszak]

Hello All!

First post.

I posted this on geekhack, but Internet Wisdom seems to dictate that the Model M has more aficionados here, so I thought i would try posting here. Please forgive me if I break any rules.

I bought a 1989 Model M off of eBay 2 weeks ago for $50. It arrived in the mail and I disassembled it and cleaned it out. I had only ONE snapped rivet in it. But in the process of cleaning it, two more snapped off. And I fell in love with buckling springs shortly after that.

My wife wanted a Model M and the seller had more available, and I, once again, made a $50 offer, and the keyboard arrived today.

However, unlike the previous keyboard, this one was not in nearly as good shape. I found 14 rivet backs in the case and the top right post the keyboard assembly sits inside was snapped off and loose inside the case. Two of the snapped rivet holes on the metal plate are rusted.

The seller offered a 30 day return policy and said the keyboard was tested/working.

And when I got it, I tested it and all the keys were indeed working.

So, how bad is 14 rivet backs loose in the case? Am I doomed to have failure soon? The busted post I can epoxy back on with some JB Weld, which I am going to do in a minute.

If I do get the seller to take the keyboard, I have to ship it myself, and that will cost me another $20 out of pocket.

I could bolt/screw mod it, but I have NO idea how to even begin to do that. If there is someone that does that professionally, I would prefer to spend the shipping cost to send it there, rather than risk another messed up keyboard coming back from this eBay seller.

So, the question is, do I keep it or return it? Is 14 way too many snapped rivets for a 1989 Model M Keyboard?

Any and all thoughts on the matter appreciated.

Here is a picture of the underside of the metal plate:



You can rust on the left side, on the right side and on the bottom right right along the bottom edge.

Here is a pic of the bottom case:



As you can see from the dark grey in the upper right-hand corner, I have already mixed some JB Weld and started the process to glue the post that snapped off back on.

These things are heavy, and the shipping costs more than I would like. So returning it is an expense I would prefer not to have to pay. But it is what it is.

The rust is particularly troubling to me. Makes me think that some kind of liquid was spilled inside the thing. But when I opened it, I did not see any signs of liquid on or around the keys, or on the inside of the bottom case.

[orihalcon]

Hello and welcome to DT!

How many broken rivets you've got I think is less important than where they are. The ones that are closer to the top and bottom don't seem to handle as much stress as the ones that are more centrally located on the curve, or that's been my experience anyway.

Most M's are going to have broken rivets, and I'd say 14 sounds fairly average. As long as all the keys work and you don't thingk that any area of the board "feels loose" or different, than probably not worth fixing just yet. Can always put it off until later, and you may never need to do it. It made it almost 30 years already, maybe it will last another 30?

Main problem is that bolt/screw modding can be a time consuming process, so if you are paying someone else to do it, depending on method, you will likely be spending at least $50 when you figure in the "to and from" shipping, and that's probably on the lower end of what you could pay. There's also partial bolt mods where you only replace the ones that are actually broken (though most never repair the bottom row as there isn't much clearance for the head of the screw there anyway and it's a low stress zone to begin with.

Hope that helps, and I'm sure other users have better ideas on what a fair bolt/screw mod is these days and when is a good time to consider doing it, so hopefully they will chime in as well!

[apastuszak]

If 14 bolts is something that can be lived with, I'll leave it alone and see how it goes. I think some of the broken rivets probably happened in transit. I've noticed these things are fragile (plastic deteriorates with age) and an intact rivet will snap from just pulling it out of the case.

Well, right now I have JB Weld drying overnight, and keycap drying in s strainer. So, I will reassemble in the morning and see how things go. If all the keys work, then I will leave it alone.

The only weird thing I am seeing is that the space bar sounds different on this keyboard vs my other Model M. The both work the same. Just this spacebar sounds more "hollow" when I push on it.

[Iggy]

Hello and welcome to DT!

Great, I just read this in Chyros's voice.

And yes, welcome to the nerdiest club on earth!

[Chyros]

It really depends on where they've snapped off. If they've all snapped off in the same area, you might notice some slack or play in the plate, which might influence the keyfeel or registering. If spread out it's not too bad though, I've had keyboards with more snapped off work fine.

[apastuszak]

Does a screw mod absolutely require a disassembly of the entire internal mechanism? It seems like I cold just pull the guts out of the keyboard, flip it over, drill a small pilot hole, and then insert a screw and tighten. As long as the pilot hole or screw don't go all the way through, i would think this would be a quick and easy repair.

And Chyros, You have an amazing voice.

[Wodan]

Top 10 rivets that shouldn‘t be broken on your ModelM or it will feel like MX Blues

Edit: of all times!

[apastuszak]

As an MX Blue owner, I feel kind of offended!

Seriously though. I have no desire to use my MX Blues now that I have experienced a model M.

[apastuszak]

Ok, reassembled the keyboard this morning.

Of course, in the reassembly process, another rivet snapped.

I plugged the keyboard in, and all seems to be OK. All the keys work without issue. And it looks so nice and clean after you take can of compressed air to it and scrub the case and keycaps with a toothbrush.

I used to always be against large keyboards. But using this has kind of changed my mind. I like the buckling spring feel enough that I stuck with it, in spite of the bulk. And now I am really wondering what my issue was with large keyboards. It's not like I was doing anything else with all that space.

I am tempted to drill a hole in the desk and run the keyboard and mouse cable into that hole and then up and around the back of my desk, and into my hub, so they're not running across the desk. Because that desk space I do actually use for something. Since I am using @orihalcon USB cable, I have plenty of cable available to do that. It's really just a question of whether I want to put a hole in the middle of my desk or not.

[Blaise170]

You can always try a Model M2. Some people hate them and they are (almost) impossible to put back together, but still great feel in my opinion.

[apastuszak]

You can always try a Model M2. Some people hate them and they are (almost) impossible to put back together, but still great feel in my opinion.

From what I read and watched, they have bad capacitors, which can be fixed. The M2 looks cool. I saw one on eBay last week. But it was being sold "as-is," which is always disconcerting.

[digital_matthew]

Does a screw mod absolutely require a disassembly of the entire internal mechanism? It seems like I cold just pull the guts out of the keyboard, flip it over, drill a small pilot hole, and then insert a screw and tighten. As long as the pilot hole or screw don't go all the way through, i would think this would be a quick and easy repair.

I've done many partial screw mods to Model M keyboards, and no you don't have to disassemble the barrel plate in order to do it. It's a fairly painless operation in fact. All you need is a Dremel and some specifically sized screws and washers. Here is a great thread that I read to learn how to do it:

workshop-f7/ibm-model-m-screw-nut-and-b ... crew%20mod

[apastuszak]

Does a screw mod absolutely require a disassembly of the entire internal mechanism? It seems like I cold just pull the guts out of the keyboard, flip it over, drill a small pilot hole, and then insert a screw and tighten. As long as the pilot hole or screw don't go all the way through, i would think this would be a quick and easy repair.

I've done many partial screw mods to Model M keyboards, and no you don't have to disassemble the barrel plate in order to do it. It's a fairly painless operation in fact. All you need is a Dremel and some specifically sized screws and washers. Here is a great thread that I read to learn how to do it:

workshop-f7/ibm-model-m-screw-nut-and-b ... crew%20mod

This sounds like something I could pull off. Just need to find those screws in a US size (Because we Americans are stupid. I really wish we were on the Metric System.)

[Blaise170]

You can always try a Model M2. Some people hate them and they are (almost) impossible to put back together, but still great feel in my opinion.

From what I read and watched, they have bad capacitors, which can be fixed. The M2 looks cool. I saw one on eBay last week. But it was being sold "as-is," which is always disconcerting.

Yes the capacitors are the primary problem with these. They use the same springs as a regular Model M though so those are easily replaceable. The only other issue that comes to mind are that the tabs are made of brittle plastic and if you aren't careful opening them, they can snap rather easily. I had an M2 for awhile and it was a joy to type on, but the capacitor died and I didn't feel like taking it apart again.

[apastuszak]

As a side note, I gave the keyboard to my wife yesterday (before I tore it down to clean it.)

She's not even close to a keyboard nerd, or even into computers all that much. But she wants to get a part time job doing transcription at home.

She put the thing down the dining room table and started to type on it, and immediately said "Thing thing feels awesome! Thank you!" followed by a huge hug.

So, it seems even someone not into this stuff can appreciate a good buckling spring.

[digital_matthew]

Going from a rubber dome keyboard to buckling springs is like dining on frozen lasagna all of your life, then one day you take a trip to Tuscany...

[apastuszak]

And the last transformation. Make a hole in the desk right behind they keyboard, so that no wires drape across my desk.

[fohat]

Just need to find those screws in a US size

I don't think that there is a US size that small in the consumer market.
Seriously, all 50 M2 screws, nuts, and washers would fit in a teaspoon. Just order them off ebay, they are very cheap.

[apastuszak]

Just need to find those screws in a US size

I don't think that there is a US size that small in the consumer market.
Seriously, all 50 M2 screws, nuts, and washers would fit in a teaspoon. Just order them off ebay, they are very cheap.

Thanks for the tip. I'll go hunt some down.

[orihalcon]

Hello and welcome to DT!

Great, I just read this in Chyros's voice.

- I was actually speaking it in Chyros' voice lol. It worked!

[digital_matthew]

Interesting that your 6 key has that flat notch instead of the caret. Not even my '86 Model M has that, only my Model F.

[apastuszak]

Maybe it's a Model F keycap? I just ordered a replacement. It's up for grabs if you want it.

[samuelcable]

Interesting that your 6 key has that flat notch instead of the caret. Not even my '86 Model M has that, only my Model F.

the legend appears to be darker too

[apastuszak]

Interesting that your 6 key has that flat notch instead of the caret. Not even my '86 Model M has that, only my Model F.

the legend appears to be darker too

I noticed that too.

[digital_matthew]

Yeah the Model F had better dye sublimation for their legends.

[apastuszak]

Yeah the Model F had better dye sublimation for their legends.

Other than the layout, I get the impression that the Model F pretty much had everything better than the Model M.

[FXT]

Yeah the Model F had better dye sublimation for their legends.

Other than the layout, I get the impression that the Model F pretty much had everything better than the Model M.

ANSI mod an F122/F107/AT and you don't even have to compromise on layout.

[fohat]

the Model F pretty much had everything better than the Model M.

An order of magnitude better, except that the case was made of a brittle plastic with an outer "skin" layer.

Model M cases are softer but tougher PVC that is the same all the way through.

[apastuszak]

I now have 2 1989 Model Ms and one 2018 Unicomp. I fear I have become a tad obsessed.

[depletedvespene]

I now have 2 1989 Model Ms and one 2018 Unicomp. I fear I have become a tad obsessed.

Amateur...