F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Wazrach

29 Jun 2019, 19:29

Oh wow, interesting stuff! Thanks Ellipse!

Honestly surprised the black cases are the least popular. :O

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depletedvespene

29 Jun 2019, 19:38

What is "Scumyc ANSI Enter"?

(Also, I noticed I'm not the only nutjob who's going for an 1.25U Enter key! Yay!)

Wazrach

29 Jun 2019, 19:40

depletedvespene wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 19:38
What is "Scumyc ANSI Enter"?

(Also, I noticed I'm not the only nutjob who's going for an 1.25U Enter key! Yay!)
I honestly feel so lucky that layouts do not matter to me... I enjoy using weird layouts! :D

Rauha

29 Jun 2019, 22:31

Interesting figures.

Nordic per capita over representation, as always and on everything.
Despite danes slacking seriously.
Swedish-finnish as most popular non-english option is rather insane.

Ellipse

10 Jul 2019, 05:49

Scumyc layout - available for compact and classic F62 only: viewtopic.php?p=317268#p317268

mSSM

10 Jul 2019, 16:04

@Ellipse, any news on how production goes? Updating everyday to see if there is some news from you. :-)

NilesLinus

11 Jul 2019, 08:18

Been away for a while. Apologies if this has been discussed. (I did perform a quick scan.)

Would this device be of use in converting the new Model Fs to Bluetooth?

https://www.adafruit.com/product/2829

What I don’t understand about electrical circuits could fill a book, I’m afraid.

Thanks for the advice!

Zimyver

16 Jul 2019, 06:00

@NilesLinus

TMK is used often as a converter, so it also should be possible with QMK, which supports the Bluefruit. But I'm not sure if QMK currently supports converter and Bluetooth.

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darkcruix

19 Jul 2019, 12:17

@Ellipse: are there any updates on manufacturing and dye sub so far? Really looking forward to hear more about it.

NilesLinus

19 Jul 2019, 15:09

darkcruix wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 12:17
@Ellipse: are there any updates on manufacturing and dye sub so far? Really looking forward to hear more about it.
I’d love a video. I’ve never seen it done.

ryvnf

20 Jul 2019, 12:07

Zed wrote:
26 May 2019, 01:20
Final artwork for all of the extra key sets with a few minor additions and changes.


F XT Extra Keys ren A.png

F XT Extra Keys ren B.png

F XT Extra Keys ren C.png
Nice job Zed!

But I notice that the "HHKB Front Print" set is missing one key. A replacement for the Enter key which has the top legend "Return" and the front legend "Enter". The HHKB keyboard will output different keycodes for Enter and Return. See https://hhkeyboard.us/wp-content/upload ... yout-1.pdf page 2 for reference.

I am also wondering how to order these and the price. Are the keys ordered as sets or individually?

Would it be possible to order only front-legends for Backspace, Left, Right, Up, Down, PgUp, PgDn, Home, End, Ins, Del, Pause, ScrLck (excluding the keys for the "HHKB Ext. Lite" mode)?

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Zed

20 Jul 2019, 14:56

ryvnf wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 12:07

Nice job Zed!

But I notice that the "HHKB Front Print" set is missing one key. A replacement for the Enter key which has the top legend "Return" and the front legend "Enter". The HHKB keyboard will output different keycodes for Enter and Return. See https://hhkeyboard.us/wp-content/upload ... yout-1.pdf page 2 for reference.

I am also wondering how to order these and the price. Are the keys ordered as sets or individually?

Would it be possible to order only front-legends for Backspace, Left, Right, Up, Down, PgUp, PgDn, Home, End, Ins, Del, Pause, ScrLck (excluding the keys for the "HHKB Ext. Lite" mode)?
Thanks! Unfortunately, we are not able to do front printing on a 'Return' sized key. There isn't enough room on the templates for another 2.25U key and as I understand how Ellipse has setup the printing jig, 1.5U is the largest size that can front printed anyway.

I believe that the regular HHKB keys are sold as a set and the front printed ones are sold individually but Ellipse will have to verify this and any ordering/price info.

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Muirium
µ

20 Jul 2019, 18:53

How do you buy the caps? The website really hates my phone.

ryvnf

20 Jul 2019, 19:18

Zed wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 14:56
Thanks! Unfortunately, we are not able to do front printing on a 'Return' sized key. There isn't enough room on the templates for another 2.25U key and as I understand how Ellipse has setup the printing jig, 1.5U is the largest size that can front printed anyway.

I believe that the regular HHKB keys are sold as a set and the front printed ones are sold individually but Ellipse will have to verify this and any ordering/price info.
I see. Good to also know that the front printed keys will be produced by Ellipse. I remember reading previously that the front printed function keys would be produced by Unicomp.

I also remember reading that international keys would be produced by Unicomp. Is that still true? Can Ellipse clarify what keys will be produced and dye-sublimated by him. And what will be done by other companies such as Unicomp?

Ellipse

20 Jul 2019, 19:28

Yes Zed is correct on the return front legend.

Darkcruix on the dye sublimation: I should have something in a week or so from now. The quality of recent tests was below that of my older tests, and I think I figured out what needs to change with my setup. Will be ready to test next week. Every variable makes a difference in the results.

The factory expects to wrap up mass assembly by mid- to late August. We had some last minute troubles with the foam packaging and boxes (I was not happy with the quality of the production samples and had them remake the samples a few times). Outside foam is finished, but the boxes need another 3 weeks.

The factory also lost some of the classic cases (!) last year during a warehouse move and only discovered the issue this year (they covered almost all of the replacement cost but I still had to cover a lot of the cost - minor price increases for the final round are likely at this point to cover all the overages).

Mass assembly of the keyboards is ongoing. I believe they are about half done.

Muirium maybe try the site in desktop mode in your browser. The mobile interface is not great on the project web site.

ryvnf

21 Jul 2019, 19:04

So if I understood correctly only front-printed functions keys and the non front-printed HHKB set can be ordered as sets, and other keys need to be ordered individually at a price of $4 per key.

This becomes very expensive for me who would like a front-printed HHKB layout. Getting all the extra keys necessary for a front-printed HHKB layout together costs more than two entire 104 key sets. I am wondering if it would be possible to sell the front-printed keys as sets instead (at a cheaper price per key).

I was thinking maybe you could divide the front-printed HHKB keys in two sets like the following:
hhkb-front-printed-key-sets.png
hhkb-front-printed-key-sets.png (147.84 KiB) Viewed 2013 times
So a person wanting just the basic front-printed HHKB layout can order the first set, while a person who would like all keys should also order the extended set. I understand that these keys would be produced at a lower quantity and that it increases the cost. But I am sure that most people interested in these keys want to order them as sets, so it seems logical that selling them as sets would be easier and cheaper to handle logistically.

I would be very glad if you would consider doing this Ellipse. I also think many other people currently hesitant to pay $56 per set for the suggested key sets listed above would appreciate it.

ryvnf

23 Jul 2019, 21:47

Zed. I'm also wondering about the legends for tab key on the key sets.

It is common for the tab key to have two arrows. One for forward tab and one for backward tab. Where the backward tab icon is on top (because backtab is entered with shift+tab). Currently the tab legend only has the forward tab icon (similar to keyboards like Model F "Bigfoot" with dedicated backtab key).
tab-key.jpg
tab-key.jpg (10.68 KiB) Viewed 1777 times
Both the Model F XT and Model F AT use this kind of icon. The Model M keyboard also use this kind of icon and has the "Tab" text printed to the left of the icon (see picture). I would personally prefer the kind of icon that comes with the Model M with the text on the left. If there will be any more revisions of the key-legends I would be glad to see that changed. Would that be possible?

Sorry if comes across as too pedantic. I therefore also want to emphasize that I really appreciate your work and it looks beautiful, except for this detail that I'm thinking about.

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daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

23 Jul 2019, 23:20

While the PC keyboards had the tab and backtab symbol on the same key, most IBM terminal keyboards had two separate keys - the backtab was in the same position as the \| key on modern US keyboards (including the 4704)

Image

and the 122-keys placed it in the same place where the Delete (3270 series) or Insert (5250 series) key would be on a modern keyboard:

Image

ryvnf

23 Jul 2019, 23:37

daedalus wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 23:20
While the PC keyboards had the tab and backtab symbol on the same key, most IBM terminal keyboards had two separate keys - the backtab was in the same position as the \| key on modern US keyboards (including the 4704)
Yes!

And since the key-sets for these keyboards have tab/backtab on the same key I think it is a slight oversight to base the legend for tab from a keyboard which normally has a dedicated backtab key. Instead I think the tab icon from the PC keyboards should be used, if possible to change.

Humanoid

24 Jul 2019, 03:27

ryvnf wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 21:47
I would personally prefer the kind of icon that comes with the Model M with the text on the left.
I too would prefer that the keys be the same as on a standard Model M, which created the most popular layout.

So the "Tab" text must go on the left of the arrows. Preferably 2 arrows. And there should be no icon on the caps lock.

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Zed

24 Jul 2019, 04:05

ryvnf wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 23:37
daedalus wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 23:20
While the PC keyboards had the tab and backtab symbol on the same key, most IBM terminal keyboards had two separate keys - the backtab was in the same position as the \| key on modern US keyboards (including the 4704)
Yes!

And since the key-sets for these keyboards have tab/backtab on the same key I think it is a slight oversight to base the legend for tab from a keyboard which normally has a dedicated backtab key. Instead I think the tab icon from the PC keyboards should be used, if possible to change.
The single tab arrow w/ text legend for the base set was originally an aesthetic decision on my part and Ellipse agreed with this choice when we discussed the options. I am not a huge fan of the double arrows when all the other modifier keys only have single icons and more importantly, the placement of the text to the left of the arrows has always struck me as a design mistake that never got noticed? or fixed.

The F XT had stepped keys for the modifiers which only allowed for single words or icons. The model for the artwork was from an F 122 (ANSI) which had a mix of icon only and icon + text modifiers despite only having a single stepped key for the Caps Lock. By the time the F AT came along, icons + text were used for everything except for the Tab/Backtab for some reason (not counting the few stepped mod keys which remained). The Model M fixed this by adding the 'Tab' text but placed it on the wrong side compared to all the other mods. I thought it would be best to standardize the mod keys and avoid what I consider to be a glaring error so we ended up with a key which matches it's brothers but is not completely faithful to the way IBM did things. Keep in mind that the XT was the intended template for the key caps for this project but we don't have any stepped keys on the Ellipse F62/77 so I felt a bit of artistic license was acceptable in this case.

That said, I appreciate your desire for historical accuracy and we do have a Tab/Backtab double arrow version available in the Icons set if that might work for you. Unfortunately, we don't have room to add any more 1.5U keys to the printing template but if Ellipse wants to change things after reading your (and Hummanoids) request, it can certainly be done.

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Zed

24 Jul 2019, 04:18

Humanoid wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 03:27
ryvnf wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 21:47
I would personally prefer the kind of icon that comes with the Model M with the text on the left.
I too would prefer that the keys be the same as on a standard Model M, which created the most popular layout.

So the "Tab" text must go on the left of the arrows. Preferably 2 arrows. And there should be no icon on the caps lock.
Just a followup since Humanoid posted while I was writing my essay. The Caps Lock was done to match the other mods and since we don't have a stepped key for this project, it became a 'what would IBM do' given those parameters decision.

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consolation

24 Jul 2019, 08:08

Honestly, the single arrow tab looks a lot cleaner and matches the remaining legends better.
Once there are more of these keyboards in the wild, I'm sure we will see group buys for alternative key sets. I, for one, will live in hope that Red Samurai will be released for bucking spring keyboards- one day.

ryvnf

24 Jul 2019, 11:59

I think the reason IBM put the text on the left side of the legend (which as you noted is inconsistent) is because they wanted the text to align with the text of the caps lock key. But that is just pure speculation.

Anyways. I made a quick mock-up in GIMP on what text to the left and text to the right looks like:
tab-key.jpg
tab-key.jpg (58.57 KiB) Viewed 1583 times
I personally think that the version with text on the left looks better.

Can I suggest that people who would like to change to a double arrow icon for tab should reply to the thread? Similarly people who are against it? To see how many agree/disagree.
Last edited by ryvnf on 24 Jul 2019, 12:09, edited 1 time in total.

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depletedvespene

24 Jul 2019, 12:05

ryvnf wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 11:59
I think the reason IBM put the text on the left side of the legend (which as you noted is inconsistent) is because they wanted the text to align with the text of the caps lock key. But that is just pure speculation.
I think your speculation is, indeed, spot on.
ryvnf wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 11:59
Can I suggest that people who would like to change to a double arrow icon for tab can reply to the thread? Similarly people who are against it? To see how many agree/disagree.
I'm against... but that's because I'm a proponent of bringing back the Back Tab key. :mrgreen:

Even without that factor considered, I'd rather have a single (forward) arrow, to keep consistency... it doesn't help the "double arrow case" the fact that the base and Shift versions of the rest of the arrowed keys (Enter/Shift+Enter, left/Shift+left, etc.) DO provoke different behaviours (not to say anything of the other mods).

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daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

24 Jul 2019, 20:02

Perhaps the best compromise is three arrows?

Image

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depletedvespene

24 Jul 2019, 20:08

daedalus wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 20:02
Perhaps the best compromise is three arrows?
No. Average it out to one and a half arrows.

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depletedvespene

24 Jul 2019, 20:09

That said... blue dyesubs? Elliiiiiipse... haven't you noticed IBM did those toooooooo? :mrgreen:

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consolation

24 Jul 2019, 20:54

Do you want your keyboard next year? Because that's how that keeps happening...

Ellipse

25 Jul 2019, 02:23

For now all the legends have been finalized but I am open to consider changes/additions in the final round. I do not want to be the one holding things up. Once the keyboards arrive I will be focused on final quality inspection and getting out all the orders.

For those who have not been following the thread as closely, Zed has posted all of the finalized legends except the international sets which we are waiting on the dye sublimation testing before finalizing - the legends are posted on the project web site here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... d-keycaps/

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