F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Gnho

30 Mar 2020, 03:01

I am happy to report back after getting a new-in-box Model F XT (chassis) from Redmaus that the key feel of modern Model F is very similar to Model F XT. If I have to find a difference, I would say the XT to be a bit stiffer, not to mention the monster spacebar. If I am going to get a third Model F, I probably would pick the F62 over XT for the more modern and economic layout. Modern Model F also has a higher quality case.

Redmaus has been super helpful in helping me navigating the whole thing. I would recommend people to buy from red market as well.

pandrew

30 Mar 2020, 05:19

Spacesaver wrote:
29 Mar 2020, 20:44
I just got back to you.
Looks like you may have a problem with one of your rows. I replied to you in PM with more details. Please make sure you enable email notifications for PMs in deskthority. I didn't have them enabled by default when I signed up.

daphnis

30 Mar 2020, 09:23

How exactly does one install the new firmware? I tried
compiling, running `src/util/src/ibm_capsense_usb_util`,
but at this point I don't see any obvious thing to do. I tried
`Store override in EEPROM` under `Voltage Threshold`, but that
didn't change anything.

User avatar
tentator

30 Mar 2020, 09:31

daphnis wrote:
30 Mar 2020, 09:23
How exactly does one install the new firmware? I tried
compiling, running `src/util/src/ibm_capsense_usb_util`,
but at this point I don't see any obvious thing to do. I tried
`Store override in EEPROM` under `Voltage Threshold`, but that
didn't change anything.
It depends on the OS you're using. Ellipse has instructions for windows in his blog or I can support you with linux or so.

Tent:wq

daphnis

30 Mar 2020, 10:10

tentator wrote:
30 Mar 2020, 09:31
It depends on the OS you're using. Ellipse has instructions for windows in his blog or I can support you with linux or so.

Tent:wq
Great. I'm on (Arch) Linux.

User avatar
tentator

30 Mar 2020, 10:50

daphnis wrote:
30 Mar 2020, 10:10
tentator wrote:
30 Mar 2020, 09:31
It depends on the OS you're using. Ellipse has instructions for windows in his blog or I can support you with linux or so.

Tent:wq
Great. I'm on (Arch) Linux.
great distro! :)
btw, which image are you going to flash?
anyway in linux it's super easy:

1) make sure you have dfu-programmer installed

2) reset the keyboard to bootloader mode (you can do this from the ibm_capsense_usb_util menu, but in case of issues or what is always working is shorting the two pins that are marked on the xwhatsit controller as "PROG", you'd better off to solder two wires/small switch for this, so do it only/mainly if you plan to do a lot of flashing.. can provide pictures if needed)

3) check that you are correctly into boorloader mode with something like:

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 get manufacturer

4) if the above worked you have to first erase the flash with:

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 erase --force

5) and then you can flash the actual firmware with:

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 flash flash_image_name.hex

Depending on what you are flashing you might want/need to erase also the eeprom part of the controller where the layout is stored in xwhatsit's firmwares at least (sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 --suppress-validation --eeprom eeprom_reset.hex as step 3.5)

Kr,
tent:wq

daphnis

30 Mar 2020, 11:07

btw, which image are you going to flash?
Thank you for explaining! Are the .hex files generated from the
same source as ibm_capsense_usb_util? I can't find any after

cd src/util
qmake
make

I wanted to use the latest from pandrew, that fixes the
fn-down--key-down--fn-up issue.
Last edited by daphnis on 30 Mar 2020, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

daphnis

30 Mar 2020, 11:16

Sorry, I now see that that is of course made from ./src.

User avatar
consolation

31 Mar 2020, 01:17

I wonder if the threshold drift and temperature are related. Could the original keyboards have used resistance/impedance as a proxy for temperature and adjusted accordingly?

LOL, maybe we need a preheat circuit; like on old valve electronics, just send a slight current through the matrix till it reaches correct resistance.

consensual-penis

31 Mar 2020, 20:21

can I have my keyboard yet?

User avatar
wobbled

01 Apr 2020, 09:43

consensual-penis wrote:
31 Mar 2020, 20:21
can I have my keyboard yet?
This man right here deserves to have his keyboard at the front of the pile, purely for his choice in usernames.

daijoubu

01 Apr 2020, 13:04

pandrew wrote:
22 Mar 2020, 19:48
Alright, found another small bug, really hope this is the last one I have to fix :)
Complete list of patches is:
1) joc's patches on top of official xwhatsit 0.9.0:
https://github.com/purdeaandrei/ibm_cap ... faad659663
2) my patches on top of it all to fix the layering issue
https://github.com/purdeaandrei/ibm_cap ... 3258aac5ae
3) fixing a stupid mistake in 2.
https://github.com/purdeaandrei/ibm_cap ... 9873ffe107
4) fixing another mistake:
https://github.com/purdeaandrei/ibm_cap ... 9f0282fd7c

.hex files attached

cheers,
Andrei
Just want to send thanks for making this. I had a similar problem with the Fn and Left/Right cluster keys to map up Home/End, and quick release of the Fn always caused an extra Left/Right input, causing the text cursor to jump up or down a line. This fixed it!

Edit: credit to webwit too for highlighting this issue that led to this being solved

Spacesaver

01 Apr 2020, 16:49

My new F77 with Unicomp keys for Mac. Spot the location of the media buttons.

It's convinced me to put my Model M in the drawer for now. I think my typing is benefitting from the more precise action.

This one works perfectly at the 122 voltage threshold. The fact that my other one works only between 110 and 97, with several keys still not working, suggests that it has a mechanical problem.
Attachments
F77 unicomps.png
F77 unicomps.png (1.12 MiB) Viewed 2331 times

daphnis

01 Apr 2020, 23:18

tentator wrote:
30 Mar 2020, 10:50

2) reset the keyboard to bootloader mode (you can do this from
the ibm_capsense_usb_util menu, but in case of issues or what is
always working is shorting the two pins that are marked on the
xwhatsit controller as "PROG", you'd better off to solder two
wires/small switch for this, so do it only/mainly if you plan to
do a lot of flashing.. can provide pictures if needed)

3) check that you are correctly into boorloader mode with something like:

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 get manufacturer

4) if the above worked you have to first erase the flash with:

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 erase --force

5) and then you can flash the actual firmware with:

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 flash flash_image_name.hex

Depending on what you are flashing you might want/need to erase
also the eeprom part of the controller where the layout is
stored in xwhatsit's firmwares at least (sudo dfu-programmer
atmega32u2 --suppress-validation --eeprom eeprom_reset.hex as
step 3.5)
I'd like to avoid doing anything that would require me to open
the keyboard physically, or, obviously, damage or ruin anything.
Is there any risk of that? If so, could I do anything to
minimize that risk?

Shouldn't I back up the original image first? I tried (after
1--3) to do

% sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 dump

but that gave

0% 100% Reading 0x7000 bytes...
[ X ERROR
Memory read error, use debug for more info.

And, about the EEPROM, wouldn't `erase` erase that too? The man
page says that `erase` erases "all the flash memory". Isn't the
EEPROM a part of all the flash memory?

And why is it necessary to erase before flashing?

User avatar
tentator

01 Apr 2020, 23:41

If you are flashing the xwhatsit firmware then it should be enough to press the reset button from the gui.

Opening the board and unscrew the controller to touch the reset point in case of complications is also an easy and almost risk free operation I'd say.. 4 + 2 screws, nothing more on a classic case.

Yes it's true you cannot dump the current running fw.. that flash is kind of write only.

And yes you always need to erase and then write the flash, won't work otherwise.

In general no worries: I flashed in the last days something like several dozen times the new qmk based fw which is going to be soon released by pandrew.

Again kudos to him for bringing stellar features, performance and reliability to this dream board.. since two days I'm testing a version that autocalibrates at power on: not a glitch, not an issue, no problem with room or temperature skews, even at the bottom row: you will never look back to the old xwhstsit afterwards.

Tent:wq

daphnis

02 Apr 2020, 00:08

Thanks for the reassurance. Did it and the fn issue is gone!

Gnho

03 Apr 2020, 00:46

Is it possible to have the "tap" function when using the IBM Capsense USB Util? Thanks!

User avatar
tentator

03 Apr 2020, 01:07

Gnho wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 00:46
Is it possible to have the "tap" function when using the IBM Capsense USB Util? Thanks!
you mean like in qmk? no, that works only with the new fw soon to be released.

Gnho

03 Apr 2020, 02:57

okay thanks!

User avatar
hypkx
Chasing the Dream

04 Apr 2020, 11:55

F62 with solenoid. I will do soon a single post.

User avatar
Twst

04 Apr 2020, 12:38

hypkx wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:55
F62 with solenoid. I will do soon a single post.
Great effort!
Planning to add one myself.
What solenoid did you use and how do you power it?

Internal pictures please ;)

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

04 Apr 2020, 13:08

hypkx wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:55
F62 with solenoid. I will do soon a single post.
Oooh that is great! I also foresee some divorces.

Wazrach

04 Apr 2020, 14:26

webwit wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 13:08
hypkx wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:55
F62 with solenoid. I will do soon a single post.
Oooh that is great! I also foresee some divorces.
This is going to sound daft, but I'm so happy all of these new Model Fs have the same, signature ping.

User avatar
tentator

04 Apr 2020, 14:37

hypkx wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:55
F62 with solenoid. I will do soon a single post.
Gorgeous man!!!
Where/how did you screw/install it inside the case?
Will try the same!!

Tent:wq

Ellipse

05 Apr 2020, 17:48

And please do keep the comments coming about the beta QMK Model F firmware. Are there currently any downsides compared to the xwhatsit in terms of performance, ease of use, etc.?

hypx thanks for sharing your solenoid video - hopefully you can post some photos of the insides of the keyboard and where to find the additional needed parts.

Nice F77 keyboard layout Spacesaver! Please keep me posted on the issue with your other keyboard.

If a key or row of keys doesn't work, I recommend opening up the keyboard and testing the keys by pressing a flipper manually to each key, as shown in one of the videos posted recently on the project web site blog. If an entire matrix row is bad, I recommend unscrewing the two screws on the controller and flexing the ribbon cable on both sides which has fixed the problem in the past in my experience. Not sure I'd recommend this but a hair dryer or heat gun (not too hot) may help reflow a bad solder joint on the controller. If the controller is determined to be bad, I will send out a replacement controller and ribbon cable (please PM me for details).

User avatar
ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

05 Apr 2020, 22:15

Glad to see your years old project coming to fruition, Ellipse!

What's the ETA if I put an order today?

Is there any compact F62 that's readily available if I don't need caps?

Ellipse

05 Apr 2020, 22:59

Yes, compact F62 in black (split shift and 2U backspace) or regular gray (standard ANSI) are both ready to ship.

Ellipse

06 Apr 2020, 18:08

As a somewhat unrelated note, someone who purchased some foam to repair their PC AT has decided to post publicly their unhappy experience so I wanted to pre-empt that with my side of things.

The customer noticed that part of the foam was assembled by glue and wanted a replacement. While this is common with a number of the inner foams from the factory, I later agreed that if they just cut up the foam instead of sending it back, I'd mail them a replacement free of charge. They then made some precise cuts to make it work in a PC AT keyboard, and said that they intended on keeping it as a spare. My intention of course was to make sure the foam was cut up in a way that made the foam unusable so that they would not be keeping two foams while having paid for one. The customer interprets the situation as me having reneged on my offer. I didn't expect that "cut up" could be interpreted any other way.

Then less then 20 minutes after the customer asked for a return shipping label (which I sent by email), the customer says that the foam was discarded and they will not return the foam but still want a free replacement.

In the end I refunded the order in full and the original foam was not returned to me but the customer is still not happy with the experience. I am of course open to constructive criticism and suggestions.

gipetto

06 Apr 2020, 20:08

Ellipse wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 18:08
As a somewhat unrelated note, someone who purchased some foam to repair their PC AT has decided to post publicly their unhappy experience so I wanted to pre-empt that with my side of things.

The customer noticed that part of the foam was assembled by glue and wanted a replacement. While this is common with a number of the inner foams from the factory, I later agreed that if they just cut up the foam instead of sending it back, I'd mail them a replacement free of charge. They then made some precise cuts to make it work in a PC AT keyboard, and said that they intended on keeping it as a spare. My intention of course was to make sure the foam was cut up in a way that made the foam unusable so that they would not be keeping two foams while having paid for one. The customer interprets the situation as me having reneged on my offer. I didn't expect that "cut up" could be interpreted any other way.

Then less then 20 minutes after the customer asked for a return shipping label (which I sent by email), the customer says that the foam was discarded and they will not return the foam but still want a free replacement.

In the end I refunded the order in full and the original foam was not returned to me but the customer is still not happy with the experience. I am of course open to constructive criticism and suggestions.
I think you were in the wrong by being ambiguous. You should have demanded a picture of the foam cut up before you agreed to a replacement, so that you could not be taken advantage of. I think that since you refunded the order, the customer has no grounds to complain, since the loss is yours.

Ellipse

06 Apr 2020, 20:31

Yes you have the right thinking gipetto; that was what I stated to them - cut up the foam and send photo evidence and I'll then send a replacement. The photo they sent back was the foam precisely cut for installation in a PC AT keyboard.

It doesn't make much sense for me to ask the customer to precisely cut the F107 foam to PC AT specifications in order to approve a replacement but that is what the customer told me was their understanding of my offer.

Due to the misunderstanding, in the end the customer has been refunded fully.

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