F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

PRIPARA_PLAYER

12 Jul 2020, 17:36

I also typically use my keyboard on my lap, so had been a bit worried about how that would work out once my F77 arrives. Glad to know other people can do it with no issues.

Ellipse

12 Jul 2020, 18:43

ZedTheMan sure, feel free to PM me your requests and order number.

Wazrach had a great recommendation for the classic case models: "I seemed to improve the key feel and sound ever so slightly by tightening the screws of the case" - definitely check to make sure your zinc case screws are fully tightened as it will press the bottom and top inner assembly plates closer together, which should help the sharpness of the clicks.
Last edited by Ellipse on 12 Jul 2020, 21:47, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Scarpia

12 Jul 2020, 20:11

Great tip Ellipse, will try that once I’m done with the floss mod I’m doing right now.

UPDATE: Tightened the screws, they weren't loose but I gave them maybe a 12th of a turn each. Not sure if I can tell a difference, but nice to know that things are as tight as they should be.

Also, I did a floss mod (my first) and the ping (which I don't enjoy) is basically eliminated.

Finally, I took the keycaps from one of my SSKs
Spoiler:
sorry for the humblebrag
and moved them to the F77, making it as close to perfect as I can get it. I will be using this as my daily driver instead of the SSK or the Realforce.

User avatar
Hypersphere

12 Jul 2020, 23:25

My F62 arrived a few days ago. Per COVID-19 precautions, I put the box in quarantine and opened it today. I requested early shipment w/o keys installed. Fortunately, I had a complete set of keys from an F-XT along with some spacebars and mods purchased some time ago from Unicomp.

Here are two views of the finished product:

F62_R1.png
F62_R1.png (380.63 KiB) Viewed 2966 times
F62_L1b.png
F62_L1b.png (509.15 KiB) Viewed 2966 times
After waiting for 4 years, I was eager to get started, so I forged ahead without first reading the Xwhatsit manual. This is a mistake -- you will ultimately save time by reading the manual. It might seem a bit daunting at first glance, but if you follow it step-by-step, the setup procedure becomes quite straightforward.

After installing all the keys and verifying that they all clicked properly, my first (premature) typing test revealed that all the keys were registering except the 6-key in the top (number) row. Naturally, I panicked, thinking I was going to have to do something drastic, such as taking the keyboard completely apart and repositioning the 6-key flipper. Not so! All that was required was reading the manual and discovering that I needed to systematically adjust the voltage threshold using the excellent Xwhatsit ibm-capsense software.

Again using the ibm-capsense software, I verified that my keyboard was programmed almost the way I wanted it -- a basic HHKB layout with a single function layer. I made a few minor changes, such as swapping the positions of the Command/Win keys with the Option/Alt keys and making CapsLock = Fn+Tab. Now that I have used the Xwhatsit software, I think I like it better than TMK/QMK or the Atmel FLIP program.

Mechanically, I changed the sound of the spacebar to my liking. As shipped, the spacebar had some rattle and the bottoming-out sound was a bit harsh. I applied some synthetic silicone grease to the stabilizer clips, inserted self-adhesive foam-rubber strips to the inside of the spacebar, and applied Poron Thin-Stik ultra-thin self-adhesive foam to the top plate where the stabilizer wire hits when the spacebar is pressed down. Now the spacebar makes a satisfying "thunk" and does not rattle.

I also like my keyboards angled, with the rear higher than the front. Therefore, rather than using the flat cork pads that ship with the F62, I put two small hemispherical bumpers near the front and two cone-shaped bumpers toward the rear.

Thus far, I have only three minor issues with my F62 setup, and two of these are problems with the Unicomp keys rather than the F62 per se. The Unicomp keys have some imperfections: first, the junction of the stem with the top of the key is visible from the top; second, the Return key binds a bit when struck on its left side. Nevertheless, I am grateful for Unicomp -- their keys and other parts have enabled me to complete projects with IBM keyboards that would have remained unfinished without them.

Regarding the F62 itself, this is just a matter of personal preference -- I would prefer to have a detachable cable -- I will consider installing a flush-mount connector as a future project.

The F62 experience is vastly different from that of my previous daily driver, a lubed and silenced HHKB, but I enjoy each of these keyboards for their own particular strengths. Although I still prefer the sound and feel of my first mechanical keyboard project -- an IBM XT with Soarer's converter -- to the sound and feel of my new F62, The layout, form factor, and size of the F62 is much more to my liking. Consequently, I anticipate using my F62 frequently. Fortunately, I have an isolated private office so that there is no one to complain about the noise, and I can switch to my HHKB when I am doing conference calls.

Regarding the overall appearance of my F62, I am extremely satisfied, especially with the red color of the case. I have ordered another F62 in black; now I wish I had opted for red for both of them. One of the F62s will go to my work office -- if the COVID-19 restrictions are ever lifted.

Finally, I would like to express my gratitude and congratulations to @Ellipse for the incredible job he has done with this monumental keyboard project and to @Xwhatsit for his amazing work with the controllers and software.

Ellipse

12 Jul 2020, 23:34

Great photos, review, and helpful advice Hypersphere!

I'd say that outside the original off-white/beige case color, red would probably be the one that I like most.

Here are some photos of recent new variations.

The blue gray / silver gray cases came out great and look even better in person than in these photos. This is a great color and I had extras made beyond what was ordered, in case anyone wanted to upgrade or order a keyboard or case in this color.

Also the Regular Gray Ultra Compact cases look great. The finish is excellent.

Printed key caps in the photos are Unicomp caps and SSK type key caps (as Scarpia just mentioned is on their new Model F).
2020-07-10_15-59-55.jpg
2020-07-10_15-59-55.jpg (283.96 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-10_15-59-28.jpg
2020-07-10_15-59-28.jpg (395.38 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-10_15-58-18.jpg
2020-07-10_15-58-18.jpg (329.66 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-10_15-57-58.jpg
2020-07-10_15-57-58.jpg (411.09 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-10_15-56-56.jpg
2020-07-10_15-56-56.jpg (366.98 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-07_12-30-52.jpg
2020-07-07_12-30-52.jpg (279.15 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-07_12-30-37.jpg
2020-07-07_12-30-37.jpg (371.11 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-07-07_12-30-25.jpg
2020-07-07_12-30-25.jpg (336.93 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-06-03_00-04-52.jpg
2020-06-03_00-04-52.jpg (315.71 KiB) Viewed 2957 times
2020-06-03_00-04-42.jpg
2020-06-03_00-04-42.jpg (233.28 KiB) Viewed 2957 times

BucklingSprings

12 Jul 2020, 23:55

Scarpia wrote:
12 Jul 2020, 13:28
BucklingSprings wrote:
12 Jul 2020, 01:25
@Ellipse: can I order additional cork pads? I like to rest my F77 on my lap - I think that the cork pads will wear out quickly.
You rest that thing on your LAP?!? I think you will need spare set of feet for your torso when the gangrene sets in from having the blood supply cut off from your legs.
:lol: - it really is at the upper limit of weight I can bear on my lap for extended periods of time.

Ellipse

13 Jul 2020, 21:57

First New Model F trackpoint mod!

Submitted to me by a non-forum member. I believe there are multiple options for doing the trackpoint mod as described here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questio ... t-version/

"I used the Unicomp M13 trackpoint but the others I mentioned will also work. I used the unicomp controller and have two USB cables running out the back. If the current controller has any extra inputs that handle PS2 or some unused GPIO pins then it could be integrated into the existing controller with the stand alone SK8702 trackpoint controller. I plan on going bluetooth in which case I can join the two controllers through a hub internally and not have to worry about two controllers and cables. I used the Unicomp GHB keys with the cutout to clear the trackpoint."
IMG_20200711_201213.jpg
IMG_20200711_201213.jpg (4.04 MiB) Viewed 2800 times
IMG_20200711_201249.jpg
IMG_20200711_201249.jpg (4.07 MiB) Viewed 2800 times
IMG_20200711_201302.jpg
IMG_20200711_201302.jpg (3.94 MiB) Viewed 2800 times
IMG_20200711_201608.jpg
IMG_20200711_201608.jpg (3.85 MiB) Viewed 2800 times
IMG_20200711_201621.jpg
IMG_20200711_201621.jpg (3.44 MiB) Viewed 2800 times

Ellipse

14 Jul 2020, 02:24

Someone asked about screw sizes - thought I'd put all the sizes in one place:

Yes you can purchase extra screws from me – please email me for current pricing and to confirm availability. All classic case screws are Pan Head screws. You can also purchase them locally or online for a low cost, probably lower than my cost.

However I recommend ordering from me if you want the Torx T8 screws I'm using for the compact cases (I also sell Phillips head compact case screws). They are of excellent quality and are custom made just for this project from a brand new mold. (the factory is replacing the lower quality phillips head screws on all the ultra compact cases that have not yet shipped to me)

Always compress the compact case right next to the screw with firm pressure (the same firm pressure to the screw with the screwdriver), go slowly, and use the correct bit (Phillips #1 PH1 for compact case screws and PH2 for classic style case screws and controller ground screws). Use only manual hand screwdrivers. Do not overtighten or the screw will strip. The small screws are far more likely to strip if the screwdriver slips.

6/32 x 3/16 in – controller and P clip screws (total 3)

6/32 x 1/2 in – classic style zinc case 4 screws

M2.5 x 4mm – compact case 4 screws to attach bottom inner assembly to case

M2.5 x 20mm – compact case 12 screws (compact F62) and 14 screws (compact F77)
Last edited by Ellipse on 19 Mar 2021, 04:59, edited 1 time in total.

consensual-penis

14 Jul 2020, 20:24

any word on the black compact cases?

kmnov2017

14 Jul 2020, 22:30

@Ellipse, would you consider selling flippers at bulk pricing ? Say 100 or 200 pcs. At your current unit pricing, an order for a quantity that large is not really affordable...

g3intel

15 Jul 2020, 01:52

My F62 kishsaver just arrived, and the setup has gone without a hitch-- until I found out that every key in column 4 in the capsense util (g/G, b/B, h/H, spacebar, 5/%, y/Y, 6/^, and t/T) are all not registering regardless of the threshold I set (I went to the lowest I could get without it registering random keys-- 117-- and still got no response from any of the keys in column 4). This is occurring both before and after flashing and updating the firmware to the included 0.9.2 firmware (debounce 6).

User avatar
Hypersphere

15 Jul 2020, 14:19

Per a request over on GH, I posted a video with typing sounds of my new F62 along with my refurbished IBM-XT for comparison. I am posting it here on DT as well:
As I mentioned previously, I prefer the sound and feel of my XT. However, I consider the F62 more usable because of its smaller footprint and standard layout. On the other hand, a usability feature that I installed on my XT is a flush-mount USB connector, making it easier to swap keyboards on my desk setup. I may eventually do the same for my F62.
Last edited by Hypersphere on 15 Jul 2020, 15:19, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
darkcruix

15 Jul 2020, 14:19

g3intel wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 01:52
My F62 kishsaver just arrived, and the setup has gone without a hitch-- until I found out that every key in column 4 in the capsense util (g/G, b/B, h/H, spacebar, 5/%, y/Y, 6/^, and t/T) are all not registering regardless of the threshold I set (I went to the lowest I could get without it registering random keys-- 117-- and still got no response from any of the keys in column 4). This is occurring both before and after flashing and updating the firmware to the included 0.9.2 firmware (debounce 6).
If you feel comfortable opening the case, you should have a look at the cable connecting keyboard PCB with the controller. Maybe there is something visible (cable loose etc).

g3intel

15 Jul 2020, 16:33

darkcruix wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 14:19
g3intel wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 01:52
My F62 kishsaver just arrived, and the setup has gone without a hitch-- until I found out that every key in column 4 in the capsense util (g/G, b/B, h/H, spacebar, 5/%, y/Y, 6/^, and t/T) are all not registering regardless of the threshold I set (I went to the lowest I could get without it registering random keys-- 117-- and still got no response from any of the keys in column 4). This is occurring both before and after flashing and updating the firmware to the included 0.9.2 firmware (debounce 6).
If you feel comfortable opening the case, you should have a look at the cable connecting keyboard PCB with the controller. Maybe there is something visible (cable loose etc).
After a bit of troubleshooting with my dad and giving the solder on the column 4 ribbon connector a touch-up, the issue's been resolved and I'm using it as my daily driver now. Absolutely lovely.

User avatar
Hypersphere

15 Jul 2020, 17:54

@Ellipse: (or anyone who might have ideas regarding this):

Some of the keys on my F62 -- especially the Enter/Return key -- make a harsh metallic sound when bottoming out. I don't think the skirt of the key touches the top plate of the keyboard when pressed down all the way, so I presume the noise comes from the key striking the top of the barrel. How might this sound be attenuated? I have seen mention of using washers from an IBM/Lexmark Wheelwriter, but I have not seen any details on such a mod, and I have not seen any of these washers for sale (apart from purchasing a complete Wheelwriter). Any thoughts on this?

Update: It appears that the Wheelwriters that had O-rings installed put them around the outside of the barrels, resting on the top of the barrel plate, per the following post:

https://trello.com/c/uYSx2zmT/7-ibm-whe ... -5-o-rings

These rings are stated to have the following dimensions: ID = 12mm; OD = 16mm; height (thickness) = 2mm. They are available on Amazon for $5.39 for a pack of 50. They are Buna rubber, hardness = 70A.

zod000

15 Jul 2020, 20:08

Hypersphere, if I am looking at the same rings on Amazon that you are referring to, it is $5.39 for a 10 pack, not a 50 pack. This probably changes the value proposition for many.

User avatar
Hypersphere

15 Jul 2020, 20:33

@zod000: The Amazon listings for these products are indeed confusing. The item I am looking at is as follows:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3 ... UTF8&psc=1

The main listing says, "uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 16mm OD 12mm ID 2mm Width, Metric Buna-N Sealing Gasket, Pack of 50". Under "Price" it says, "$5.39 ($1.08 / 10 Items)". So, I am hoping that this means $1.08 for 10 rings and $5.39 for 50 rings. However, looking at the uxcell storefront, they list a price of $5.39 for 10 rings. I am not sure which price is correct.

zod000

15 Jul 2020, 20:56

Right, I was looking at https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Rings-Nit ... 07GJCGZKX/ which is $5.39 for 10. Looking at your page, it definitely claims it is a 50 pack for the same price. I'm going to be the guinea pig and try it even though I am quite happy with the sound as it is.

User avatar
Hypersphere

15 Jul 2020, 21:09

@zod000: I have placed an order on Amazon for what I hope is a pack of 50 rings for $5.39. When they arrive, I will post here to let folks know how many rings are actually in the package. Either way, I will test at least the Enter/Return and some other keys to see if I like the result. I am also in the process of doing a "floss mod" to attenuate the pinging of the springs (hmm, this sentence reminds me of a G&S comic opera and/or an Edgar Allen Poe poem).

zod000

15 Jul 2020, 21:10

I find the pinging endearing (for now), but I ordered two (hopefully) 50 packs as well so we'll see how the o-rings work.

User avatar
tentator

15 Jul 2020, 21:41

I'd be curious to hear how those orings sound.. But they might also kill the tactility somehow... So far I'm super happy with my F62 with floss mods though!!

User avatar
Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 00:19

zod000 wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 21:10
I find the pinging endearing (for now), but I ordered two (hopefully) 50 packs as well so we'll see how the o-rings work.
I don't think that the O-rings will help the pinging of the springs. For that, you probably need to do the "floss mod". The O-rings might attenuate bottoming-out noise. However, beautiful theories have a way of being swept aside by ugly facts, so let's do the experiments and see hear what happens!

jujubii

16 Jul 2020, 02:53

hi everyone, just got my f77 in the mail. when i plug the keyboard into my PC, it behaves as if the function key is held down permanently (e.g., pressing 1 translates to F1, 2 to F2, a to Vol Dn, etc.). I couldn't find any way to fix this or to figure out how to remap it aka it's not plug and play for me right now.

I searched the literal OP and Ellipse's youtube videos but couldn't find any instructions. Could someone please enlighten me? I remember reading about this somewhere deep in this thread but can't manage to find it

edit: i found a wealth of information in the following places and i'm totally unsure on which to follow just to get the keyboard mapped and working normally. noob friend instructions are highly appreciated. or at least some guidance on the OP or the official website because this thing is definitely not plug&play >.>

viewtopic.php?p=467104#p467104
https://imgur.com/a/kth6dHt#O0IArSE
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Last edited by jujubii on 16 Jul 2020, 08:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Elrick

16 Jul 2020, 04:50

jujubii wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 02:53
hi everyone, just got my f77 in the mail.
Good onya.
jujubii wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 02:53
noob friend instructions are highly appreciated. or at least some guidance on the OP or the official website because this thing is definitely not plug&play >.>
If and when mine arrives suspect it too will be unusable.

Not worried, very happy to leave it in it's box forever more. Like most older Model-Fs that never saw the light of day, despite many decades passing by.

Personally been using Cherry-based junk far longer than any buckling spring keyboard and not even phased anymore about being stuck with using them. The Cherry hatred has worn off simply because they ALL work from the get go by connecting them via the USB port. What more could you hope for but a 100% working keyboard when you hand out your money?

This Model-F experiment is only for those that love to tinker and fiddle endlessly. For everyone else, it will mostly sit in it's packaging waiting for their (great or) grand children, to open it and look inside.

jujubii

16 Jul 2020, 08:50

oddly enough, when i plug the keyboard into my mac everything works normally. however, i would still love some direction as to figuring out how to toggle and configure function levels.

User avatar
Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 16:39

jujubii wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 02:53
hi everyone, just got my f77 in the mail. when i plug the keyboard into my PC, it behaves as if the function key is held down permanently (e.g., pressing 1 translates to F1, 2 to F2, a to Vol Dn, etc.). I couldn't find any way to fix this or to figure out how to remap it aka it's not plug and play for me right now.

I searched the literal OP and Ellipse's youtube videos but couldn't find any instructions. Could someone please enlighten me? I remember reading about this somewhere deep in this thread but can't manage to find it

edit: i found a wealth of information in the following places and i'm totally unsure on which to follow just to get the keyboard mapped and working normally. noob friend instructions are highly appreciated. or at least some guidance on the OP or the official website because this thing is definitely not plug&play >.>

viewtopic.php?p=467104#p467104
https://imgur.com/a/kth6dHt#O0IArSE
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Go to the following site:

https://static.wongcornall.com/ibm-capsense-usb/0.9.0/

Download the capsense file for your operating system (e.g., Windows, Linux, or Mac). Run the capsense program. Follow the instructions provided at the following site:

https://static.wongcornall.com/ibm-capsense-usb/0.9.0/

This manual might look complicated at first, but just follow it systematically and you should be able to get your board working. You can start with section 6.1 "Initial voltage threshold setting". This is critical. You should be able to find a good setting between 100 and 150. The ideal setting for my F62 happened to be 124. Then go from there to check the mapping of the keys or to remap keys to your liking.

Good luck!

User avatar
Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 16:52

@Ellipse: (Or Anyone who has done a "floss mod" on the F62 or F77):

I have just finished doing a floss mod on my new F62 keyboard. Whereas this was very easy on my IBM-XT, the F62 required multiple tries to get the flossed spring to buckle after putting the key back on. I used the same Oral-B Superfloss on both boards, and I used the same procedure. The problem with flossing the F62 was most pronounced near the center of the keyboard. So, for example, it took MANY tries to get the following keys to buckle properly: 6, u, h, n. In fact, I was not able to get the "n" key to buckle after countless trys. I tried changing the floss and trimming the floss to different lengths, all to no avail. Consequently, I removed the floss from the n-key and then it buckled, but of course now it pings. Could this difficulty have something to do with unequal tension between the backplate and barrel plate at different points along the rows? Has anyone else experienced difficulty with a floss mod on their new F62 and/or F77 keyboards?

clickclack

16 Jul 2020, 18:53

I flossed my compact F62 with the same floss in lengths of 14 mm and it went fine. 14 mm is short enough that the floss doesn't protrude above the spring.

User avatar
Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 19:34

clickclack wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 18:53
I flossed my compact F62 with the same floss in lengths of 14 mm and it went fine. 14 mm is short enough that the floss doesn't protrude above the spring.
Interesting. One difference between our two situations is that I have the standard F62 and you have the compact F62. Are the plates the same for these two models?

In addition, the lengths of my floss strands are somewhat variable. They extend about 1-2 mm above the top of the spring. This way, if I don't like the effect, I can easily grasp the floss with a pair of forceps and extract it from the spring. How do you retrieve the floss if you want to remove yours from the springs?

Given that I have only one key (the n-key) that seems to refuse to be flossed, I think I may leave well enough alone (although this is difficult for me!). I fear if I use a short length of floss on the n-key and the spring still refuses to buckle, I might have difficulty removing the floss.

Overall, I prefer the sound of my flossed F62 to what it was pre-flossed, although its sound is still not as good as that of my XT. The alphanumeric keys sound okay, but the spacebar and mods sound a bit harsh on bottoming out. I might try the O-ring treatment to see if this helps.

I am also seeing chattering and spurious key actuations -- seemingly random letters and numbers appear when typing. I will try resetting the current threshold.

cap

16 Jul 2020, 19:45

I have floss modded my F77 with no problems. I used Superfloss, and I pushed the floss down enough that it does not protrude above the tops of the springs.

I don't know how I would remove the floss if I ever wanted to. I almost didn't do the mod for that reason. But I did and I'm happy with it.

Post Reply

Return to “Group buys”