F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

18 Dec 2020, 20:30

great nulani, glad you are all set up and running! I have not seen as many photos with HHKB + ISO layout like your photo!

Dye sublimation update: now that the alignment results have improved significantly as shown in an earlier post (but are not yet to spec), the factory is finalizing the design of what will hopefully be the production jig next week, and the jig should be completed in the next couple weeks. I have ordered the (very costly) dye sub equipment for the factory (previously the factory was paying to use another factory's machines for R&D purposes) which should finish production and be delivered in about two weeks.

Reminder from my recent months' blog posts: while we wait for sublimation of the keys to finish, the “separate shipping” option is still available for you to request. This option allows your keyboard to ship in the coming weeks instead of waiting further. The only keyboards that are not going out are those who prefer delivery all at once (e.g. if they do not have extra Model M / Model F / Unicomp keyboards to borrow keys from) and those whose keyboards are in the second of two container shipments of the early bird round, now expected to arrive end of January or early February. The cost is typically between $10 and $20 for the separate shipping option. Contact me over email with your order number to request separate shipping and I will see if you're eligible. There is also a newly added option: you can substitute the keys you ordered for unprinted pearl/pebble keys, or order an extra set of unprinted pearl/pebble keys if you would prefer to stay with brand new Model F keycaps.

Some special inventory items, looking at my list:
I have to double check this but as of now I think I have one unclaimed keyboard with black unprinted keys installed: F62 Industrial Gray, split shift and split backspace. This is the last black key set that can ship for the next couple months. The rest of the blue, black, and dark gray sets will be here in a couple months.

I also have F62 Beige, ANSI Enter and Split Backspace with Pearl/Pebble unprinted keys installed

And F77 Beige with Split Shift and 2U backspace with Pearl/Pebble unprinted keys installed

First come first served so please do double check with me before ordering if you would prefer not to wait.

User avatar
Scarpia

21 Dec 2020, 09:32

Sounds great Ellipse — that industrial F62 with black caps sounds like a beauty - any chance of a photo?

fbblovezl

21 Dec 2020, 12:16

nulani wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 19:41
Mine finally arrived today after spending nearly a month in transit. Just in time for Christmas! Typing on it now after a bit of a worrying start where I managed to make the mistake of using the wrong kind of stabiliser insert for the backspace key; ended up disassembling the keyboard to replace the barrel. I recommend everyone have a look through the manual first and don't make the same mistake as me, especially the one where I disassembled the keyboard without removing all the keycaps again first. 🤦‍♀️

All sorted now. Feels so much crisper than my Unicomp Model M. Might harvest the alphanumeric keys from that, although it is a lot easier to type with blank caps than I thought given how I type with floating hands rather than touch type. Need to figure out QMK so I can remap Ctrl and Caps Lock back to their usual positions though.

Thanks for all the effort you've put into reproducing and bringing an amazing keyboard into the modern age and availability, Ellipse.

2020_1218_19164900.jpg
From payment to receipt of the keyboard, how many months did you wait?
I am a Chinese buyer. I paid on October 21st, but I haven’t received the keyboard or even the email. I’m very confused and don’t have any contact information for modelfkeyboards.

nulani

21 Dec 2020, 16:22

fbblovezl wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 12:16
From payment to receipt of the keyboard, how many months did you wait?
I am a Chinese buyer. I paid on October 21st, but I haven’t received the keyboard or even the email. I’m very confused and don’t have any contact information for modelfkeyboards.
Over three years. I ordered before production had started in earnest. Worth the patience. Contact information is available in the footer on the modelfkeyboards.com webpage or you could probably also contact Ellipse via private messaging.

Ellipse

24 Dec 2020, 17:05

Hello fbblovezl - as noted by nulani, contact information is on the project web site, including my email address. You can also send me a PM through Deskthority.

As noted before, if interested, everyone please PM me with your order number to check on whether your keyboard can be delivered early, with separate shipping of keys when they are ready. This may change in the future but all classic case keyboards, except True Red (F62/77), Silver Gray (F62), and Black (F62), are in stock and can ship. Same for regular gray case ultra compact F62, ANSI enter. Unprinted pearl/pebble keys are also in stock, though all other unprinted keys and printed keys will be shipping separately, expected early next year.

For all other options, if you order now it will take several months for delivery. The second container shipment is expected to arrive in February.

Those who have been waiting a while, are waiting for their keys to ship at the same time as their keyboards or are waiting for their keyboard on the second container shipment.
Last edited by Ellipse on 30 Dec 2020, 02:48, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
troglotype

25 Dec 2020, 18:12

Did anybody else have their keyboard function without any problem on QMK for months and suddenly it starts to put out the wrong letters or double letters (i.e. wrong codes). Happened out of the blue. No changes in the setup. Any ideas how to best troubleshoot this? (Edit: This was caused by the damaged power supply for a powered USB hub)
Last edited by troglotype on 26 Apr 2021, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

Ellipse

25 Dec 2020, 22:15

troglotype wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 18:12
Did anybody else have their keyboard function without any problem on QMK for months and suddenly it starts to put out the wrong letters or double letters (i.e. wrong codes). Happened out of the blue. No changes in the setup. Any ideas how to best troubleshoot this?
For all QMK beta issues kindly PM pandrew with the details

Ellipse

26 Dec 2020, 04:09

I have just posted the December update on the project web site - check it out for the latest status summary!

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Ellipse

30 Dec 2020, 20:59

The second container shipment is finally on its way! Due to the significant increase in container shipping volume in recent months, this shipment is expected to take longer than the first one. It's expected to arrive and be delivered in late February.

Here are photos of the goods ready to be picked up and the truck being loaded. Unfortunately there is no photo of everything loaded up, just the "in progress" photos were taken.
2020 12 Second Container shipment (A).jpg
2020 12 Second Container shipment (A).jpg (207.67 KiB) Viewed 2264 times
2020 12 Second Container shipment (B).jpg
2020 12 Second Container shipment (B).jpg (269.38 KiB) Viewed 2264 times
2020 12 Second Container shipment (C).jpg
2020 12 Second Container shipment (C).jpg (187.05 KiB) Viewed 2264 times

BucklingSprings

30 Dec 2020, 23:26

Both my Mathias and my Unicomp developed some key chatter over time. Not terrible - but noticable and
limited to specific keys ('j' on the Matias and (ironically) 'm' on the Unicomp).
I have been using my F77 almost exclusively since early june 2020 and -despite heavy use- I have not
ran into any glitches. Neither chattering nor unresponsiveness.

At least for my specific case I can attest that the great typing feel goes hand in hand with
high reliability.

Every single keystroke on every button is still as precise as it was on the first day.
I have turned into a keyboard snob now: anything else but the F77 feels cheap and
"disgusting" to type on.

No - Ellipse is not paying me to say these things. This is how I genuinely feel about the F77. It is the
best keyboard that I have ever used.

Zcool31

31 Dec 2020, 05:38

I have a 10 year old Unicomp that has developed chatter in the function row. Interestingly it seems to go away in winters and return in summers. Also a 1990 Model M.with no chatter at all.

My point is that not all lesser keyboards necessarily suck.

DrivenKeys

31 Dec 2020, 07:16

Lol, I don't think anyone actually means lesser keyboards suck. Aside from Ellipse, most of us are probably here because of a Model M from one era or another. It's just that the F is that much better. If you watch Rick and Morty, it's like when Rick showed Morty "True Level".

15 years ago, a new/old stock '95 Model M became my daily driver, and I still love it. Last year I finally got concerned about the next 15+ years. After almost a year messing with Unicomp and so many MX switches, I finally realized the value of my time, and decided the only proper replacement was this painstaking recreation of the OG buckling spring. I'm waiting on my F77 now, which will wear my M's faded caps for a while, and I'm probably planning on a second Model F as well. After all, we won't get another chance when the next run is over. I defintely want to use this for the rest of my life, so I'm keeping a backup in case of accident or loss. It's tough to swallow now, but in 30 years will be totally worth it.

Ellipse is an inspiration to me, and I'm proud to own part of the preservation/evolution of such a breakthrough in computing history. I'm rolling my eyes thinking of how many people I'll have to explain this to over the next few decades.

willdenham

31 Dec 2020, 16:40

Got my delivery yesterday and just had to knock out at least one of them. I ordered up four, three F77s in various colors and an F62 Currently using my beige F77, with some fairly unique keycaps I borrowed from another board in my collection (would be neat if anyone else recognizes them).

I cannot thank Ellipse enough for seeing this project through, and at a level of completeness that few group buys ever see. This isn't just some off the shelf group buy where a manufacturer is calling the shots, it's obvious that love and a close eye were involved in getting this project to where it is, and these keyboards are going to stand the test of time for decades to come if first impressions are anything to be believed.

It's rainy and dark here for New Years, but as soon as it gets a little brighter I'm going to get some beauty shots of these.

Image

Image

User avatar
zrrion

31 Dec 2020, 17:04

AT&T model m caps, nice. Personally I like than more than IBM caps.

willdenham

31 Dec 2020, 17:19

zrrion wrote:
31 Dec 2020, 17:04
AT&T model m caps, nice. Personally I like than more than IBM caps.
Spot on! Got a real nice example of the AT&T M clone that I basically never use. The PANIC key is a Unicomp special and the two "windows" keys are from the great DecentKeyboards on etsy who can basically dye-sub anything you want on an individual cap.

DrivenKeys

01 Jan 2021, 00:51

willdenham wrote:
31 Dec 2020, 16:40
three F77s in various colors
What other colors did you get? I'm about to order my second, and I can't decide between this retro beige or the silver gray. It's tough to see from pictures if the silver gray is worth the extra cash. It does look great in pics.

willdenham

01 Jan 2021, 05:54

DrivenKeys wrote:
01 Jan 2021, 00:51
willdenham wrote:
31 Dec 2020, 16:40
three F77s in various colors
What other colors did you get? I'm about to order my second, and I can't decide between this retro beige or the silver gray. It's tough to see from pictures if the silver gray is worth the extra cash. It does look great in pics.
Industrial, Beige and Black. I have to say the Beige and Black ones are my favorite, not because the Industrial is bad or inaccurate, but just fits my set up the best.

DrivenKeys

01 Jan 2021, 10:14

I settled on beige to accompany my industrial gray one. It took me a long time to decide between black and industrial gray. I went with beige for my second, mostly because the retro tone is so ingrained with my childhood (yes, the price helped, too).

User avatar
funkmon

03 Jan 2021, 05:27

Well, I got mine in the mail today; I'm fairly pleased.

Image

The only problem with it is the QMK firmware. I don't understand it and the keyboard configurator thing didn't work, so I flashed xwhatsit back on that bad lad. Ahhhh. That's better! It actually makes sense! Haha!

Anyway, I don't use layer functions very much, and I only really use a handful of F keys, so I modified the layout so the split shift layer key in the somewhat standard HHKB layout is actually F6, RGUI is F5, RALT is F4, RCTRL is layer, and I did the numpad layout with the keypad enter in the bottom right. Anyway, I'm really surprised; it feels exactly like the real thing. It has the Model F sound, the Model F feel, it's amazing. Just like my F107, but without the desk real estate.

Up until this keyboard, I had considered the XT to be the superior layout, and indeed, the superior keyboard. The nav cluster is dumb when we have a numpad IMO, and the function keys are best served on the left. Plus, the sound and feel are better than the widely enjoyed AT, and it's smaller.

I now have an F107, an XT, an AT, an F122, and unbelievably, the best one of them is the F77. I can do everything I need to do without a layer, basically, and it saves space while still maintaining the feel. What a time to be alive. I'm genuinely going to buy another one when I get paid next month if I can. Maybe 2.

Ellipse

03 Jan 2021, 17:45

funkmon wrote:
03 Jan 2021, 05:27
Well, I got mine in the mail today; I'm fairly pleased.

Image

The only problem with it is the QMK firmware. I don't understand it and the keyboard configurator thing didn't work, so I flashed xwhatsit back on that bad lad. Ahhhh. That's better! It actually makes sense! Haha!

Anyway, I don't use layer functions very much, and I only really use a handful of F keys, so I modified the layout so the split shift layer key in the somewhat standard HHKB layout is actually F6, RGUI is F5, RALT is F4, RCTRL is layer, and I did the numpad layout with the keypad enter in the bottom right. Anyway, I'm really surprised; it feels exactly like the real thing. It has the Model F sound, the Model F feel, it's amazing. Just like my F107, but without the desk real estate.

Up until this keyboard, I had considered the XT to be the superior layout, and indeed, the superior keyboard. The nav cluster is dumb when we have a numpad IMO, and the function keys are best served on the left. Plus, the sound and feel are better than the widely enjoyed AT, and it's smaller.

I now have an F107, an XT, an AT, an F122, and unbelievably, the best one of them is the F77. I can do everything I need to do without a layer, basically, and it saves space while still maintaining the feel. What a time to be alive. I'm genuinely going to buy another one when I get paid next month if I can. Maybe 2.
Great funkmon; glad your keyboard arrived safely and is working well!

As a note for everyone, the QMK Model F firmware is still in beta and is not yet part of the official QMK to my knowledge, so everyone who wants to update their QMK layouts should send a PM to pandrew to request access to the beta. This is only required if you want to change something - the keyboards come preprogrammed.

User avatar
phinix

03 Jan 2021, 22:00

I've been reading about this a lot and now I want one!
I'm looking at a nice, ANSI beige F77 :)

Muirium showed me his Kishsaver years ago and I felt it, it was pretty impressive keyboard.
I'm not a fan of 60%, I've been always a fan of TKL, so F77 would be great.

Is this till available for order?

BucklingSprings

04 Jan 2021, 16:18

DrivenKeys wrote:
31 Dec 2020, 07:16
Lol, I don't think anyone actually means lesser keyboards suck. Aside from Ellipse, most of us are probably here because of a Model M from one era or another. It's just that the F is that much better. If you watch Rick and Morty, it's like when Rick showed Morty "True Level".

15 years ago, a new/old stock '95 Model M became my daily driver, and I still love it. Last year I finally got concerned about the next 15+ years. After almost a year messing with Unicomp and so many MX switches, I finally realized the value of my time, and decided the only proper replacement was this painstaking recreation of the OG buckling spring. I'm waiting on my F77 now, which will wear my M's faded caps for a while, and I'm probably planning on a second Model F as well. After all, we won't get another chance when the next run is over. I defintely want to use this for the rest of my life, so I'm keeping a backup in case of accident or loss. It's tough to swallow now, but in 30 years will be totally worth it.

Ellipse is an inspiration to me, and I'm proud to own part of the preservation/evolution of such a breakthrough in computing history. I'm rolling my eyes thinking of how many people I'll have to explain this to over the next few decades.
You are speaking my heart !

DrivenKeys

05 Jan 2021, 02:38

phinix wrote:
03 Jan 2021, 22:00
I've been reading about this a lot and now I want one!
I'm looking at a nice, ANSI beige F77 :)

Muirium showed me his Kishsaver years ago and I felt it, it was pretty impressive keyboard.
I'm not a fan of 60%, I've been always a fan of TKL, so F77 would be great.

Is this till available for order?
At the moment, the website indicates that it's updated for this month, and orders are still currently accepted. It's a little confusing, as it still asks all orders to be placed by 12/31, but Jan 2021 'accepting orders' is below that.

I've only spent a couple hours looking around, so anybody please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand correctly, these orders are the last of the extras that Ellipse ordered during the early bird round. He's been on top of all aspects, so I'm guessing his website knows when stock is sold out, and if it's still available to put in the cart, it should be available for sale. Still, it's a good idea to email him to be sure.

The second round of production will happen later this year, but must be more expensive, as production costs have recenty increased. Still, if you can't afford one now, there will be a chance later on in the year. I'm hoping that additional case colors may be available then, but not holding my breath.

Again, if I'm incorrect, please somebody let us know.

Ellipse

05 Jan 2021, 04:04

Hi Driven, you are correct that orders are still being accepted for the early bird round. Everyone please message me if you are interested in the down payment / payment over time option which is also still available. This option has no additional costs, no interest, etc.

The current orders are for the early bird round. The final round is expected to be later this year.

Yes you are correct that the final round may cost more. I have managed to keep keyboard costs in line by increasing the pricing of all the accessories instead of increasing the pricing of the keyboards themselves. This allows the keyboards to be priced as low as possible and allows as many people as possible to be able to use these great keyboards.

Before the final round I will have to check the 2020 costs of all components and factory labor and do some analysis on what pricing is feasible. I am thankful for everyone who has participated in the project and for those who have supported the project in an extra way through ordering the custom/low serial upgrades, First Aid Kits, and other extras. Raw material and labor costs have skyrocketed in China; hopefully costs will get a little better later this year.

photometer

05 Jan 2021, 05:26

If I press some keys (letter ones 1U size) at the edges, I can feel resistance and the key does not go down smoothly. If I press at the center, the key goes down smoothly. I don't know the technical term to describe this.
I am using Unicomp keys on the F77 keyboard. I do not see this with my original IBM M keyboard or even the Unicomp M Keyboard.

Has anyone else experienced this? If yes, what is the solution?

@Ellipse - Is this expected? Will this go away once I use your keycaps? Is the stem design of your keycaps any different from Unicomp keys?

John Doe

05 Jan 2021, 07:15

photometer wrote:
05 Jan 2021, 05:26
If I press some keys (letter ones 1U size) at the edges, I can feel resistance and the key does not go down smoothly. If I press at the center, the key goes down smoothly. I don't know the technical term to describe this.
I am using Unicomp keys on the F77 keyboard. I do not see this with my original IBM M keyboard or even the Unicomp M Keyboard.

Has anyone else experienced this? If yes, what is the solution?

@Ellipse - Is this expected? Will this go away once I use your keycaps? Is the stem design of your keycaps any different from Unicomp keys?
I have sorf of same issue except mine focused on keycaps than 1U, that should be expected I guess.

Jan Pospisil

05 Jan 2021, 11:17

Possibly a heretical question: Can these be floss moded to reduce the ping?
(edit: Oh nevermind, this seems like yes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bADwB2n5E6M)
Is it still necessary to disassemble the whole thing to get into the spacebar?

Less heretical question - can the cable be swapped for another? (not sure what the connection is inside there..)

Ellipse

05 Jan 2021, 18:02

Jan, you do not need to disassemble the inner assembly to get to the space bar. That was only the case with the XT type Model F keyboards. The new Model F keyboards use Model M type space bars which can be removed more easily.

Yes the cables can be swapped. You'll probably want to wait until your keyboard arrives before ordering the cable as the internal connectors vary between USB C and micro USB. There's no way to guarantee one or the other unless you purchase a spare controller (all of which are USB C) and do the soldering yourself (this service is not offered by me). However, almost all of the compact case models are USB-C but the space for the connector is narrow, so not all cables will work.

photometer

05 Jan 2021, 21:11

@Ellipse - Can you please answer my question:

If I press some keys (letter ones 1U size) at the edges, I can feel resistance and the key does not go down smoothly. If I press at the center, the key goes down smoothly. I don't know the technical term to describe this.
I am using Unicomp keys on the F77 keyboard. I do not see this with my original IBM M keyboard or even the Unicomp M Keyboard.

Is this expected? Will this go away once I use your keycaps? Is the stem design of your keycaps any different from Unicomp keys?

Ellipse

05 Jan 2021, 21:30

photometer please do check back earlier in the thread, as Unicomp tolerances have been discussed before, and potential fixes also mentioned on the project manual.

If you are super sensitive to the keys I recommend the new Model F keys when they are ready, and maybe ordering a set of unprinted new Model F keys for the time being. Years were spent getting the new Model F tolerances for all parts (including keys) to match those of the originals. As mentioned a couple years ago, an earlier factory produced all the key molds but failed to meet IBM's tolerances - rather than accept these keys the factory and I rejected these parts and I paid to produce all the tooling again with another factory (did not get any money back). Despite the delays it was well worth the wait to have IBM quality PBT keys.

However I will note that I have personally used Unicomp keys of a recent production on the new Model F keyboards and did not experience the issues you described. There were some reports of issues with the larger keys which was improved with the methods listed in the manual.

If anyone has any suggestions please do share them!

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