F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

pandrew

07 Feb 2021, 00:16

Bjerrk wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 19:39
with the "Keypress Monitor" of the QMK utility, I can see that pressing a key produces lots of extraneous keypresses.
E.g. pressing M ends up activating most of the bottom row as well.
That's not necessarily a problem. Keypress Monitor doesn't send the keypresses through the debounce algorithm, so some ghosting can happen in keypress monitor that is not gonna show up in the real keyboard. In particular I noticed that non-pressed keys can light up that are in the same logical row as pressed keys. (see the matrix layout to look at the keymatrix in its logical form). This seems to be a property of capacitive sensing. A couple months back I added some anti-interference code that reduced by about 50% the occurrance of such interference even when not using debouncing, but looks like it's still possible. I'm still thinking of ways I might improve it further. In any case, it shouldn't be necessary, since debouncing should take care of that. I'm also thinking of just adding some form of debouncing to Keypress Monitor, to have it enabled by default, to avoid scaring people.

To continue debugging, please PM me the following:
1) A screenshot of the Signal Level Monitor after it has been open for a couple tens of seconds with no keys pressed.
2) A screenshot of the Signal Level Monitor after all keys have been pressed slowly (you can press more than one key at once, just pay attention to not go too faste due to the slow refresh rate)
3) A screenshot of keypress monitor, mostly to see the trained thresholds.

Andrei

Ellipse

07 Feb 2021, 05:31

Some more details on the sublimation of keys:
A whole team at the factory is required to run the sublimation process including inspection and quality control. Each key set is inspected by more than one person as an extra precaution.

It may take several months more to get out the rest of the orders. The priority is the standard color pearl/pebble full sets first, and then the other sets (this was noted at the start of offering the additional colors). They have figured out how to ramp up production efficiently and expect production up to about ~180 jigs' worth of sets per day (main set + two accessory sets for example), so it will take several months to finish sublimation of the thousands of key sets and keys ordered so far.

As noted before, the fastest way to get your keyboard is to request the separate shipping option detailed on the project web site blog, and have other keys or order blank keys to use in the mean time.

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Bjerrk

07 Feb 2021, 13:26

pandrew wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 00:16
Bjerrk wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 19:39
with the "Keypress Monitor" of the QMK utility, I can see that pressing a key produces lots of extraneous keypresses.
E.g. pressing M ends up activating most of the bottom row as well.
That's not necessarily a problem. Keypress Monitor doesn't send the keypresses through the debounce algorithm, so some ghosting can happen in keypress monitor that is not gonna show up in the real keyboard. In particular I noticed that non-pressed keys can light up that are in the same logical row as pressed keys.
That makes sense, thanks!
pandrew wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 00:16
To continue debugging, please PM me the following:
1) A screenshot of the Signal Level Monitor after it has been open for a couple tens of seconds with no keys pressed.
2) A screenshot of the Signal Level Monitor after all keys have been pressed slowly (you can press more than one key at once, just pay attention to not go too faste due to the slow refresh rate)
3) A screenshot of keypress monitor, mostly to see the trained thresholds.
Andrei
Thanks, Andrei, I really appreciate it!
However, the F77 seems to have worked flawlessly since I disconnected the other keyboard (a Tex Shinobi via Bluethooth on Linux). I have no idea why they would interfere at all, but something certainly seems to have worked!

elcano: Regarding the question about USB hubs: I don't use one at the moment, but it is good to know that unpowered ones may cause trouble!

elcano

08 Feb 2021, 03:20

Bjerrk wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 13:26
elcano: Regarding the question about USB hubs: I don't use one at the moment, but it is good to know that unpowered ones may cause trouble!
I recently purchased a power supply for the USB hub that was causing problems, but have not tested if that will solve the problem. I'll try later this week and let you know. However, section 6.3 of the Model F Technical Reference says that the solution is using a powered hub. I cannot recommend the manual high enough.

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Bjerrk

08 Feb 2021, 16:18

Having used the keyboard for a couple of days, I have to say that it is pretty magnificent. Definitely the best clicky keyboard I have used. All of your hard work is definitely appreciated, Ellipse - and pandrew, darkcruix and whoever else contributed to make it this good.

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Ellipse

09 Feb 2021, 20:38

The key sets have arrived and they look great! It is great to say that finally, printed XT quality new Model F key sets will be shipping out starting tomorrow! More photos and scans of key sets to be posted later this week.

Bjerrk glad your keyboard is working well so far and thanks for posting your photo!
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Scarpia

09 Feb 2021, 22:03

That’s wonderful news Ellipse - congratulations on this final major production milestone!

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darkcruix

09 Feb 2021, 22:48

Can’t wait to see the detailed photos .... THE FINISHING LINE !!!!!

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Gunsight1

10 Feb 2021, 02:07

Hello hello! Mine arrived today!!! It is beautiful!

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But I am having some difficulty with keys not functioning.

I have mine set up with Unicomp keycaps and made sure to have the keyboard in the right orientation when installing the keycaps. A couple of the keys that did not work the first time started working properly after I removed and reinstalled the keycaps, but most are still non functional after re-seating the keycaps a couple times. I'm sure there is something I'm missing, so dropping in here to see if anyone has any suggestions.

Non functional keys:
3, 4, E, R, D, F, C, V

Interestingly all pairs in almost line down the height of the left side of the board.

Thanks very much!

Ellipse

10 Feb 2021, 02:36

Seems like a column issue Gunsight1 - please read the manual for the solution to this issue - Troubleshooting - Section K. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual/

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Gunsight1

10 Feb 2021, 02:47

Ok, taking a look..

I have not taken apart the baord, so I hope nothing is going on with the controller, just removed and reinstalled keycaps, I also donno where to find the control software, or which one my board has installed (downloaded some stuff off the site but none seem to be a program, just some config files)

Ellipse

10 Feb 2021, 03:19

Contact pandrew for access to QMK beta software, but it should not be needed as you have already diagnosed the issue sufficiently. Just touching up the solder as per the manual should fix it up.

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Gunsight1

10 Feb 2021, 03:23

ahhhh...I was so hoping it would be something simpler like adjusting the spring or me just not putting keys on right. I have not soldered things in 20ish years and don't have the equipment :(

(edit) Did pop the back off so I could put the big chonk feet on and snapped a pic of the controller while I had the backplate off
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Ellipse

10 Feb 2021, 03:46

Unfortunately some issues with the Model F (detailed in the manual) are most easily fixed with extra tools like a soldering iron, lock jaw pliers, etc. It is recommended to have the spare parts on hand (First Aid Kit, etc.) along with these tools so that everyone is personally able to maintain their keyboards in future decades, long after the project is only a memory. A basic $20 soldering iron kit with solder from Amazon or eBay should do the trick - you don't need a Hakko FX888D for these kind of repairs though I do enjoy using that Hakko myself!

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Gunsight1

10 Feb 2021, 03:52

yeah, got the first aid kit and pliers etc. Gonna have to pick up the soldering iron stuff and do some practicing before I even think about working on the keyboard it's self

mbarszcz

10 Feb 2021, 04:57

After years of fumbling around and swearing at my F122, I somehow finally stumbled on this thread. Reading what problems people have had even on the new F62+F77 keyboards has validated my struggles for years with my original F122. Even after refoaming it, clamping it, bending it different ways, grounding it, not grounding it, insulating it, not insulating it, trying different USB ports, etc. I would constantly have to fiddle with thresholds only to never get it quite right. I would have either have phantom key presses (backspace loves to trigger the entire F row) or adjust the threshold up again only to stop the phantom presses but now have keys not register. I would eventually get fed up and have to put the F122 back into storage. This cycle went on for years.

Since the F122 was so rare and there was such little discussion regarding it or the xwhatsit firmware, I felt like I was off on an island by myself and thought my poor F122 was just a lemon. I was contemplating trying to modify the plates or bolt mod it to try to fix the issues. Now that the new model Fs are in the hands of so many more people, it is so reassuring to see that it's not MY model F that's fiddily, they all are. And best of all, it sounds like there is new firmware that can finally help. You don't understand how excited this makes me, it's like finding out there's a cure to my terminal disease that I've had for years.

I've read ~the last 20 pages or so of this thread, but still can't find the QMK firmware. I would really really love to try that on my F122. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Is it still in beta or has it been released somewhere?

OxC0FFEE

10 Feb 2021, 05:21

@mbarszcz pm @pandrew. He'll get you sorted.

Jan Pospisil

10 Feb 2021, 11:06

It's somewhat bizarre that keyboards touted as the most sturdy and long lasting have these kinds of fundamental issues when they ship NEW.
Sure as hell hope mine will be ok, because I've never done any soldering.

clickclack

10 Feb 2021, 12:28

Finally got out the superglue and made my 1.25 U right shift key.
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darkcruix

10 Feb 2021, 17:36

clickclack wrote:
10 Feb 2021, 12:28
Finally got out the superglue and made my 1.25 U right shift key.
I have a similar setup - why did you require superglue?
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darkcruix

10 Feb 2021, 17:46

Jan Pospisil wrote:
10 Feb 2021, 11:06
It's somewhat bizarre that keyboards touted as the most sturdy and long lasting have these kinds of fundamental issues when they ship NEW.
Sure as hell hope mine will be ok, because I've never done any soldering.
I have 5 of them and each one was working perfectly out of the box. I would say out of the 500+ shipped only a tiny fraction had issues which could be solved super easy.

clickclack

10 Feb 2021, 21:30

The inv. T made of 1.25 U keys lines up perfectly with a similar gap on the left and right of the 'up' key and to the left of the 'left' key.

I didn't like the way the non-stepped part of the Caps Lock wasn't centred above the 'down' key.

I superglued a Model M stem into a 1.25 U key to make the pebble-coloured key to the right of 'up'. I'm using it as shift rathar than function as, as a long time user of HHKBs, I didn't use that key for anything other than function shifting for arrow keys before.

The difference in shade between the unicomp 1.25 U pebble and the ellipse enter is less noticable in the flesh.

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Bjerrk

10 Feb 2021, 21:34

Gunsight1 wrote:
10 Feb 2021, 03:23
ahhhh...I was so hoping it would be something simpler like adjusting the spring or me just not putting keys on right. I have not soldered things in 20ish years and don't have the equipment :(

(edit) Did pop the back off so I could put the big chonk feet on and snapped a pic of the controller while I had the backplate off
Image
Did you check that none of the solder contacts had pierced the tape? I can't tell for sure from the photo. I put an extra layer of tape on mine, just in case.

clickclack

10 Feb 2021, 21:37

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darkcruix

10 Feb 2021, 22:00

clickclack wrote:
10 Feb 2021, 21:37
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I love that - you can bet I will try the exact same thing ;)

clickclack

11 Feb 2021, 11:54

The really cute thing is that the 1.25 U key is an ISO left shift key. So there'll be a printed version of it as a "normal" key from both Unicomp and ellipse.

Ellipse

11 Feb 2021, 23:51

All but two of the "all in stock" single digit and early bird tooling supporter orders for keyboards and new Model F key sets have shipped out!

Next up are the earliest low/custom serials with all orders' contents in stock.

Below are photos of the very first keyboards with the sublimated new Model F key sets to go out, along with the inner assemblies moved to other case colors for the purposes of photographing additional keyboard variations.

The key sets came out even better than expected! So good that I have decided to sell off two spare original IBM F107 key sets on eBay in the coming weeks because I believe the new sets are of better quality.

All this week's photos are available in the continually updated imgur album of keyboard variations - a selection of these photos is below. The imgur album has the full res photos: https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

The layouts in the photos include F62 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace, F77 ANSI with 0-9 and Cursor keys, and F77 ANSI with Ins/Del/etc. keys and cursor keys. Case colors shown include Off-White/Beige, Industrial Gray, Black, and Silver/Blue Gray.
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Last edited by Ellipse on 13 Feb 2021, 08:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Gunsight1

12 Feb 2021, 00:08

I have not checked that. Does it cause an issue if they do? Also what kind of tape is it?



Bjerrk wrote:
10 Feb 2021, 21:34
Gunsight1 wrote:
10 Feb 2021, 03:23
ahhhh...I was so hoping it would be something simpler like adjusting the spring or me just not putting keys on right. I have not soldered things in 20ish years and don't have the equipment :(

(edit) Did pop the back off so I could put the big chonk feet on and snapped a pic of the controller while I had the backplate off
Image
Did you check that none of the solder contacts had pierced the tape? I can't tell for sure from the photo. I put an extra layer of tape on mine, just in case.

Ellipse

12 Feb 2021, 02:08

And below is a high resolution scan of the new Model F sublimated keys on my Epson V700, along with a detailed crop of the same image to show the quality.
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2021 02 11 new Model F scanned keys detail comparison.jpg
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Gunsight1

12 Feb 2021, 02:10

Those are clean! Also! Where can we order a key with the buckling sprint diagram on it like that bottom right one?! :O

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