What stem/spring combos have you tried?

[ripster]

Exactly.

I think Clear Stems makes more sense than a spring swap.

See the amazing amount of graphs/pics above.

[Soarer]

At least I know that Soarer's Clear Spring numbers agree with my ever so primitive Nickel testing. Damn Cherry Corp Force Graph is WRONG!

Do they? Is It?

I might've picked slightly the wrong range of spring lengths to test. Well, not really wrong for testing springs, but wrong for comparing to the forces when fitted inside a switch. And anyway, the two are NOT directly comparable, since there are other forces within a switch.

[ripster]

Could have been COINCIDENCE that our Cherry Clear numbers match.

I don't think so.

I won't post pics. I've talked enough for here today. Might get in trouble.

[Limmy]

I just bought a digital caliper for $10 shipped from ebay. I will use "clamping a pocket scale" method to measure the forces of springs at different lengths and some switches when they are near bottomed out.

I have clear, blue, brown, red springs so I will see if I get comparable measurement with Soarer's.

[Limmy]

When I measured the tactile bump of a clear switch, 65g was enough to push the switch over the tactile bump while 62.5g was not. So, I don't think the tactile bump part of the force chart is wrong. When I put on 90g, the switch bottomed out, while putting on 87.5g and tapping the weights and listening for a gap seemed to suggest there is more room. Fairly close to the force chart, probably actual measurements are slightly lower than what force chart is suggesting.

[ripster]

Where is Limmy?

I have no clue what he is saying here about these Korean Gold Springs.

Originally Posted by Soarer
Do they have somewhere the spring rate and free length parameters for their springs? Or measurements of the force for at least a couple of compressed lengths? Otherwise, I must criticise for the use of a single value to describe a spring!

Unfortunately max load is the single number distinguishing the springs along with group buy organizer's name. However, max load is the number that is most important for normal users. They would not really care about other detailed information (spring constant, initial load when inside a Cherry switch or free length) even though the designers would know those numbers.

There are several different custom springs that have max load of 62gf but the words are that they are all slightly different. I have no experience in those springs, but I conjecture the differences are from differences in spring constants (maybe overall length difference too but they pretty much look alike).

Sounds like classic McRip effect to me.

Editors note: my GH question was deleted so sorry for the repost.

[Limmy]

Read your Hooke's law again. The spring constant is not a constant across different springs.

[ripster]

Linear is linear limmy. Slope can vary a tad yes.

Get your friends to RipOmeter/Scale those things! Keyboard Science 101!

[Limmy]

Putting weight on keys is not going to reveal the spring constant. You would have to have more sophisticated instruments to measure them. That is why I tried this. Oh wait, you might want to use Google translate on this because you don't have access.

Measuring peak force is no where close to describing feel. What it is measuring is a point on a force chart. Force chart could have different slopes, so even in the linear switches it is not enough. It is a pity measurement tools used to create force charts are very expensive. It would describe so much (although not all) about differences on mods and everything.

[ripster]

So.. Show me some force charts then because the Korean translations sound like Haiku poetry, not scientific observation.

You have heard of Observer Error?
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect

Or good ol' Heisenberg?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... enberg.jpg

[Limmy]

I heard of observer error, but there is no room for observer error in my measurements if you are suggesting them. Your use of psychology is excessive in my opinion and it would cloud your judgements in the long run. It may describe small interesting human behavior, but in my opinion psychology itself is never the fundamental driver.

It is pretty surprising you didn't see the measurements and the charts in the posts. This is my last post today responding to one of many of your off topic posts.

Here is the chart that is posted in the two links I posted.

source - http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/4109072

springs_chart.png (26.69 KiB) Viewed 5551 times

In the chart, x-axis and y-axis represent the length of compressed spring and reading on the scale respectively.

[ripster]

Off topic?

The post title is SPRINGS!

Anyhoo I'll try and take pics of the various springs soon including the NEW White spring macro shots.

I dunno, this looks like random +/-2g measurement and standard manufacturing deviance error stuff in your chart above. Testing at least 10 of each would have made it more persuasive.

Plus, nobody has complained swapping springs about differences.

[IvanIvanovich]

I have tried all the MX types on commercially available boards, and combinations of those.
My current rank from personal best to worst: (stem/spring)
red, blue, black, green - blue/black, clear/black, clear, clear/brown, brown, L grey - T grey, brown/black...
I haven't tried white, any of the 'super' switch with 100+cn or other obscure ones yet.

[ripster]

I think I can safely say you can skip the WHITE.

I have no idea what Cherry Corp was designing that switch for but it ain't no Clicky Green.

110725213067b2f6424537c526.jpg (172.71 KiB) Viewed 5451 times

Pics stolen from somebody or other

Look for upcoming pics with Watermark saying Ripster. Quality MUCH better.

[7bit]

I think that blue=brown=red springs.

Limmy(Keyboardmania.net) and Soarer disagree and say there is a 2-3G difference.

Crazy ass theory if you ask me but I have heard stranger on the InterToobs. FIRE the Cherry Corp Industrial Engineer if true. I think 2-3g measurement differences are within manufacturing batch tolerances.

Blacks ARE stiffer.

Clears are stiffer still but NOT 20g stiffer than blacks.

Clears and blacks are equally stiff, also red, blue, brown are equally light.

The actual differences come from the tactility. Just swap springs and try again.

Also, only NIB switches should be compared from the same production batch. Otherwise there could be differences which are caused by cost cutting or such.

[ripster]

I should stick nickels on my white switch.

MotherMayI?

[7bit]

...

You tested these springs in one and the same switch, yes?

[ripster]

Limmy tested those springs OUTSIDE the switch.

http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?atta ... 1337017977

Damn, damn damn....

brb, gotta download to PC..

then upload here.

What a PITA. How many JPEG viruses you think enter Geekhack?

[JBert]

I think that blue=brown=red springs.

Limmy(Keyboardmania.net) and Soarer disagree and say there is a 2-3G difference.

Crazy ass theory if you ask me but I have heard stranger on the InterToobs. FIRE the Cherry Corp Industrial Engineer if true. I think 2-3g measurement differences are within manufacturing batch tolerances.

Blacks ARE stiffer.

Clears are stiffer still but NOT 20g stiffer than blacks.

Clears and blacks are equally stiff, also red, blue, brown are equally light.

The actual differences come from the tactility. Just swap springs and try again.

Also, only NIB switches should be compared from the same production batch. Otherwise there could be differences which are caused by cost cutting or such.

This needs proof. Last thing I heard, red = blue = brown but clears and blacks are different, or why would people make panda clears (i.e. a hybrid between black and clear switches).

[ripster]

Anyhoo know you know why I was ragging on Limmy about measurement error.

Limmy SpringOmeter.jpg (74.51 KiB) Viewed 5438 times

Limmy SpringOdeath.jpg (77.33 KiB) Viewed 5438 times

If I complain about attachment blocking will I get banned? Lemme know soon because....

[ripster]

Nice WATERmark Limmy...

Anyhoo I'm posting this because if I'm gonna get banned here I want to know upfront this time.

FLA_4569-2.jpg (178.66 KiB) Viewed 5448 times

FLA_6075.jpg (436.4 KiB) Viewed 5448 times

Cherry WHITE 2.jpg (173.63 KiB) Viewed 5448 times

I hope not because OCN did not give a fuck and THOSE guys are tightasses!
http://www.overclock.net/t/881812/tell- ... t_16886472

My most recent infraction point (expires in 30 days and you need 10 to get BANNED so fuck you REALLY have to work at it)

I LUV OCN MODS.PNG (69.73 KiB) Viewed 5444 times

[7bit]

OK, I was wrong about the clears vs. blacks. But both in a black switch behave the same, but look totally different:


edit:
both in black: the same

both in clear: the black sping is heavier against the clear sping, then clicks down. Shortly afterwards, the black sping clicks down and both are the same towards the end.

(The red stem is just for making it more colorful I actually compared modern black spring with modern clear spring )

[itlnstln]

The only difference, then, in clear and vintage black is length (which makes it a little lighter?). I guess modern blacks are lighter than both clears and vintage blacks.

[ripster]

The Vintage BLACK spring (why is it under a RED switch?) has less coils. GENERALLY that means it's stiffer for a fixed wire diameter.

The one far right is visibly thicker. Measuring spring diameters is a PITA btw...

There's a formula I got somewhere....

[7bit]

The Vintage BLACK spring (why is it under a RED switch?) has less coils. GENERALLY that means it's stiffer for a fixed wire diameter.

The one far right is visibly thicker. Measuring spring diameters is a PITA btw...

There's a formula I got somewhere....

It was in a red switch because I've swapped red springs into a vintage black keyboard.

Again: The black spring wins the "who can stay longer non-clicked"-game and then both are the same again.

This is something the Ripometer and Webwitometer methods can't show!

For this, you must apply the 7bitometer method!

[ripster]

We're starting to get too many meters here. You forget the LimmySpringatron.

[7bit]

We're starting to get too many meters here. You forget the LimmySpringatron.

I just take 2 switches and press them against each other. So I've got a direct comparision. No need to think about temperature, altitude, air pressure, coin-weight inacurracy etc.


BTW: I've found out that those 2 clear switches which I tested behave a bit different, so maybe this test should be done with more than one switch of each type ...

[Limmy]

You have heard of Observer Error?
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect

You have heard of Observer Error?
Anyhoo know you know why I was ragging on Limmy about measurement error.

Measurement error and oberver effect are totally different things, ripster.

You tested these springs in one and the same switch, yes?

No, I tried two springs of the same kind.


I am well aware of the measurement errors, so I measured a spring twice to see if the two measurements are close. I wrote down the numbers in first try, and in second try I see if they match. They matched quite nicely, so I wouldn't worry too much about measurement errors.

[ripster]

OK, I got an idea. How about we agree that IF there are differences they are in the 2 to 3g range?

And therefore well within McRip Effect territory?

[IvanIvanovich]

All the vintage black I have had were slightly lighter feeling than current. Spring had less coil but seemed to be lighter gauge and appeared like it was made of some other metal, was a dull grey tone. I also noticed the legs on the stem were slightly less pronounced, which is what I think makes them seem lighter. I noticed something similar on very old blue, which had a black plastic clicker instead of the clear ones now. Spring on those was also different looking more like brass.
Both were from 'new old stock' board.
Also I lied about white, I did have some linear with white stem but they seemed to be identical to blacks otherwise.
Not sure if I still have any of those or not.