IBM - The illusive Yugoslavian layout

User avatar
Jugostran

17 Jan 2022, 15:58

Hello everyone.
This is my first time posting here, and I am very excited to discuss all things keyboard with all of you!
Anyway, to stay on topic, ever since I started watching Chyros' videos I always wanted a Model M. Now, in my search for one, I found some had a Yugoslavian layout, which would suit me perfectly. And, as luck would have it, last summer I tracked one down. However, this sent me into one of the deepest rabbit holes I have ever been in. That being the search for Yugoslavian layout IBM keyboards. According to most sources, only Ms were available with it, however, I found some long dead listings for blue switch Fs bearing the YU layout. I also dug up some spec sheets which indicated that IBM also offered YU layout 4704s, however, these have yet to be confirmed to exist.
Now, I am starting this thread so if anyone finds any Yugoslavian layout IBM keyboards (not counting IBM's later rubber dome keyboards) you can post them here. Another layout that would be nice to see is the Serbian/Cyrillic layout (not to be confused with Russian/Cyrillic) as I have yet to see B/S keyboards with that layout. I am hoping that will help determine how rare/common these keyboards are, and maybe we could even find some undocumented ones!
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Until next time,
Jugostran

User avatar
shine

17 Jan 2022, 17:02

I've never seen this layout

Picture for reference. Good luck mate!
3179-3180 IBM.png
3179-3180 IBM.png (398.91 KiB) Viewed 23848 times

User avatar
depletedvespene

17 Jan 2022, 18:00

shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 17:02
I've never seen this layout

Picture for reference. Good luck mate!

3179-3180 IBM.png
It does not escape notice that the alphas in this layout are all identical to the then-regular YU layout, with the {} key being the only exception (instead of a Ž key), even though both characters ARE in the tertiarly layer, in their expected places. I'm tempted to think the {} key was required to be there for some mainframe software packages, but that makes little sense — perhaps the Ž key was omitted because it wasn't supported in whatever charset was being used... or, perhaps even, was left out by mistake.

User avatar
Jugostran

17 Jan 2022, 19:03

shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 17:02
I've never seen this layout

Picture for reference. Good luck mate!

3179-3180 IBM.png
Thanks mate!

User avatar
Jugostran

17 Jan 2022, 19:07

depletedvespene wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 18:00
shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 17:02
I've never seen this layout

Picture for reference. Good luck mate!

3179-3180 IBM.png
It does not escape notice that the alphas in this layout are all identical to the then-regular YU layout, with the {} key being the only exception (instead of a Ž key), even though both characters ARE in the tertiarly layer, in their expected places. I'm tempted to think the {} key was required to be there for some mainframe software packages, but that makes little sense — perhaps the Ž key was omitted because it wasn't supported in whatever charset was being used... or, perhaps even, was left out by mistake.
I assume the omission of the Ž key is a mistake, as you mentioned. Other than that the alpha cluster looks identical to my YU M. However, since it is a terminal board, we never can be sure about the other keys. One way to confirm is to find a YU Terminal M or F. However, I have yet to stumble upon one that wasn't just a keycap swap job.

User avatar
shine

17 Jan 2022, 19:17

depletedvespene wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 18:00
shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 17:02
I've never seen this layout

Picture for reference. Good luck mate!

3179-3180 IBM.png
It does not escape notice that the alphas in this layout are all identical to the then-regular YU layout, with the {} key being the only exception (instead of a Ž key), even though both characters ARE in the tertiarly layer, in their expected places. I'm tempted to think the {} key was required to be there for some mainframe software packages, but that makes little sense — perhaps the Ž key was omitted because it wasn't supported in whatever charset was being used... or, perhaps even, was left out by mistake.
there's also this one that as the Ž
Captura de pantalla 2022-01-17 a las 19.15.40.png
Captura de pantalla 2022-01-17 a las 19.15.40.png (1.24 MiB) Viewed 23761 times

User avatar
depletedvespene

17 Jan 2022, 20:09

That strenghtens my hyphotesis. Unless we find evidence to the contrary, we should assume the {} key in the first diagram is a mistake.

User avatar
Jugostran

17 Jan 2022, 23:14

depletedvespene wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 20:09
That strenghtens my hyphotesis. Unless we find evidence to the contrary, we should assume the {} key in the first diagram is a mistake.
Agreed.

User avatar
Jugostran

17 Jan 2022, 23:18

shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 19:17
depletedvespene wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 18:00
shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 17:02
I've never seen this layout

Picture for reference. Good luck mate!

3179-3180 IBM.png
It does not escape notice that the alphas in this layout are all identical to the then-regular YU layout, with the {} key being the only exception (instead of a Ž key), even though both characters ARE in the tertiarly layer, in their expected places. I'm tempted to think the {} key was required to be there for some mainframe software packages, but that makes little sense — perhaps the Ž key was omitted because it wasn't supported in whatever charset was being used... or, perhaps even, was left out by mistake.
there's also this one that as the Ž

Captura de pantalla 2022-01-17 a las 19.15.40.png
This is huge. 3179 terminal keyboard is an F122. This basically confirms that IBM had at least assigned a part number for a Yugoslavian layout F122. Now, same as with the F107, it is really hard to get concrete evidence with no keyboards being found in the wild. And that is coming from someone who lives in the region.
Luckily I have a contact closely associated with the Croatian branch of IBM. They told me that some of their coworkers use Ms that they found in storage. I am hopeful that there are some terminal boards, and maybe even an F122 in their storage.
Also, this indicates to me that P/N 1393669 (standard for all IBM and Lexmark YU Ms) might have also included a square badge variant (in addition to a gray badge, blue badge with and without SDL).
EDIT:
Could I get the source document for these layout descriptions? I would love to find out which P/N these keyboards used.

User avatar
shine

18 Jan 2022, 09:17

Jugostran wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 23:18
shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 19:17
depletedvespene wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 18:00


It does not escape notice that the alphas in this layout are all identical to the then-regular YU layout, with the {} key being the only exception (instead of a Ž key), even though both characters ARE in the tertiarly layer, in their expected places. I'm tempted to think the {} key was required to be there for some mainframe software packages, but that makes little sense — perhaps the Ž key was omitted because it wasn't supported in whatever charset was being used... or, perhaps even, was left out by mistake.
there's also this one that as the Ž

Captura de pantalla 2022-01-17 a las 19.15.40.png
This is huge. 3179 terminal keyboard is an F122. This basically confirms that IBM had at least assigned a part number for a Yugoslavian layout F122. Now, same as with the F107, it is really hard to get concrete evidence with no keyboards being found in the wild. And that is coming from someone who lives in the region.
Luckily I have a contact closely associated with the Croatian branch of IBM. They told me that some of their coworkers use Ms that they found in storage. I am hopeful that there are some terminal boards, and maybe even an F122 in their storage.
Also, this indicates to me that P/N 1393669 (standard for all IBM and Lexmark YU Ms) might have also included a square badge variant (in addition to a gray badge, blue badge with and without SDL).
EDIT:
Could I get the source document for these layout descriptions? I would love to find out which P/N these keyboards used.
here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/G ... _Apr87.pdf

User avatar
Jugostran

18 Jan 2022, 09:19

shine wrote:
18 Jan 2022, 09:17
Jugostran wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 23:18
shine wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 19:17


there's also this one that as the Ž

Captura de pantalla 2022-01-17 a las 19.15.40.png
This is huge. 3179 terminal keyboard is an F122. This basically confirms that IBM had at least assigned a part number for a Yugoslavian layout F122. Now, same as with the F107, it is really hard to get concrete evidence with no keyboards being found in the wild. And that is coming from someone who lives in the region.
Luckily I have a contact closely associated with the Croatian branch of IBM. They told me that some of their coworkers use Ms that they found in storage. I am hopeful that there are some terminal boards, and maybe even an F122 in their storage.
Also, this indicates to me that P/N 1393669 (standard for all IBM and Lexmark YU Ms) might have also included a square badge variant (in addition to a gray badge, blue badge with and without SDL).
EDIT:
Could I get the source document for these layout descriptions? I would love to find out which P/N these keyboards used.
here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/G ... _Apr87.pdf
Thank you!

User avatar
shine

20 Jan 2022, 23:36

yugoslavian beamsprings
Captura de pantalla 2022-01-20 a las 23.35.22.png
Captura de pantalla 2022-01-20 a las 23.35.22.png (868.08 KiB) Viewed 23466 times

User avatar
Jugostran

26 Jan 2022, 17:17

shine wrote:
20 Jan 2022, 23:36
yugoslavian beamsprings
Captura de pantalla 2022-01-20 a las 23.35.22.png
No way, that is brilliant. If only I could find one of those. I can imagine that they are basically keyboard unobtanium though.

User avatar
Jugostran

31 Jan 2022, 10:53

Screenshot_20220131-105000_DuckDuckGo.jpg
Screenshot_20220131-105000_DuckDuckGo.jpg (443.6 KiB) Viewed 23263 times
Screenshot_20220131-102800_DuckDuckGo.jpg
Screenshot_20220131-102800_DuckDuckGo.jpg (182.17 KiB) Viewed 23263 times
Screenshot_20220131-105158_DuckDuckGo.jpg
Screenshot_20220131-105158_DuckDuckGo.jpg (1.01 MiB) Viewed 23263 times
I found a YU terminal board for sale locally. It has a part number I don't recall seeing before.

User avatar
Dingster

31 Jan 2022, 21:02

YU is actually quite a common M layout. You could also get them (well Wheelwriters) in YU Cyrillic ;)

User avatar
Jugostran

03 Feb 2022, 09:48

Dingster wrote:
31 Jan 2022, 21:02
YU is actually quite a common M layout. You could also get them (well Wheelwriters) in YU Cyrillic ;)
I have found 10-15 Ms (including M122s) with YU layout.
So not that common, but it is a thing.
And wheelwriters? Yeah, those are common as typewriters were the main form of data input up to the late 80s in the region.
However, we are still yet to find three specific boards:
YU F122
YU F107
YU Beamspring
If anyone has any leads/works somewhere with IBM keyboards stored away, please get in touch!

User avatar
Jugostran

18 Feb 2022, 19:07

I found a pretty interesting specimen. This seems to be a Type II M 122 key terminal keyboard. Part number is 0985955, made in the Netherlands.
This thing makes me hopeful for the existence of YU F 122 key terminal boards.
Attachments
Type 1 M122.jpg
Type 1 M122.jpg (129.75 KiB) Viewed 22244 times
Type 1 M122 PN.jpg
Type 1 M122 PN.jpg (62.14 KiB) Viewed 22244 times
Type 1 M122 Assembly.jpg
Type 1 M122 Assembly.jpg (61.79 KiB) Viewed 22244 times

User avatar
Weezer

21 Feb 2022, 08:00

Im confused lol

So are you looking to find a yu layout f just to have the pn? I think those are in the datasheets

The only thing unique about a yu latout is the alpha block and they can be put on any m or f

User avatar
Bjerrk

21 Feb 2022, 08:51

Am I understanding it correctly that you are looking for an F YU?

User avatar
Palatino

21 Feb 2022, 08:53

Bjerrk wrote:
21 Feb 2022, 08:51
Am I understanding it correctly that you are looking for an F YU?
:lol:

User avatar
Weezer

22 Feb 2022, 11:46

Bjerrk wrote:
21 Feb 2022, 08:51
Am I understanding it correctly that you are looking for an F YU?
Nice 8-)

User avatar
Jugostran

25 Feb 2022, 10:36

Weezer wrote:
21 Feb 2022, 08:00
Im confused lol

So are you looking to find a yu layout f just to have the pn? I think those are in the datasheets

The only thing unique about a yu latout is the alpha block and they can be put on any m or f
I am looking for a YU F122/F107 or beamer.
The F107 has a P/N for the YU layout. The F122 currently does not (another poster on this thread just found some datasheets showing the layout). Same for the beamer.

User avatar
Jugostran

27 Feb 2022, 23:01

New development.
Just found this picture showing a YU IBM PC/XT keyboard!
Image

User avatar
Jugostran

10 May 2022, 14:42

Well, I haven't found any new YU P/Ns of note. But, as I stated before, I still believe that YU Models F weren't ever manufactured. Instead, you got a keycap set to swap out the UK/US ones. In light of this, I present to you my YU IBM Model F122 (1385082)!
YU Model F122
YU Model F122
PXL_20220507_203007681.jpg (2.95 MiB) Viewed 16414 times

User avatar
Jugostran

30 Jun 2022, 20:53

Found a new YU P/N - 1394223
It is a terminal 103 key Enhanced Keyboard (Model M). I had two of these in my hands. A 1996 gray badge and a 1997 blue badge.
1996 Model M 103 top
1996 Model M 103 top
PXL_20220522_113135426.jpg (2.84 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1996 Model M 103 bottom
1996 Model M 103 bottom
PXL_20220522_113204570.jpg (3.31 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1996 birth certificate
1996 birth certificate
PXL_20220522_113302287.jpg (2.36 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1996 assembly label
1996 assembly label
PXL_20220523_101649751.jpg (2.23 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1997 Model M 103 top
1997 Model M 103 top
PXL_20220522_113214302.jpg (2.31 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1997 Model M 103 bottom
1997 Model M 103 bottom
PXL_20220522_113254625.jpg (3.17 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1997 birth certificate
1997 birth certificate
PXL_20220630_1845532512.jpg (2.01 MiB) Viewed 11858 times
1997 assembly label
1997 assembly label
PXL_20220523_101021244.jpg (2.22 MiB) Viewed 11858 times

User avatar
tactica

20 May 2024, 16:19

@Jugostran

You'd do well adding pictures to the wiki so the evidences you find don't get lost. Threads here don't last forever, I've lost count of the number of wiki references pointing to DT threads that became dead.

Cyber Junkie

20 May 2024, 16:36

Still waiting to be saved here in Croatia.
Image

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