Is the Northgate Omnikey Plus worth $130?

[LambdaCore]

I've been thinking about nabbing one, I already have a FK-2001 and I love the switches, I've heard they sound even better in the Omnikey chassis alongside other benefits such as NKRO, extra keys, etc. Is $130 a good price or should I hold out for better deals?

[Muirium]

Keyboard inflation says $250 will be a good deal. Maybe hold out for that.

Honestly, when I first got into this hobby, anyone who ever said a three digit pricetag got looked at like a complete nut job. That’s inflation!

[LambdaCore]

You've said enough to make up my mind! It was actually $130 and NOT $250, most I see online go for around 150 but I wasn't sure if that was needlessly inflated and they usually go for less or not

[Muirium]

That was my point. These numbers are very much a moving target: guess which way they go.

[Polecat]

The Plus was a Gen2-only model. That means earlier (pine) white switches, but probably not NKRO. Price to me depends on which features you want or need, but also on condition. I never thought I'd pay more than $50 for any keyboard, but then I found my white whale, or more accurately my gray one (industrial gray K104) and I've never once regretted spending the money to get it.

[LambdaCore]

Huh, I thought the 2nd gens had NKRO but lacked blue alps, guess my research was wrong on the Plus specifically thinking it was closer to the Ultra than the first gen 102

[fohat]

I have only ever kept 101s because my old hands have muscle memory and need a true-ANSI layout.

But for what it's worth :

[LambdaCore]

I might get it for that! I've been running into rollover issues on my FK-2001, the board also looks to be in really good condition baring some yellowing on a few key caps. Not to mention the layout seems like a plus, I kinda wanna try ctrl where caps usually is and the like without completely losing caps lock, on top of that every sound test I've heard, they sound nicer in the metal chassis

[Muirium]

N-key rollover sounds like one of those terms we came up with, but there it is on the vintage PCB. What is the first attested use of the term, I wonder? Is it in the patents? Does it go back to the mists of (computer) typing time? I’m guessing it was wasn’t yet relevant for typewriters and teletypes!

[jsheradin]

N-key rollover sounds like one of those terms we came up with, but there it is on the vintage PCB. What is the first attested use of the term, I wonder? Is it in the patents? Does it go back to the mists of (computer) typing time? I’m guessing it was wasn’t yet relevant for typewriters and teletypes!

It's mentioned in August 1970 at least.

Spoiler:

1970.PNG (148.45 KiB) Viewed 4898 times

[LambdaCore]

N-key rollover sounds like one of those terms we came up with, but there it is on the vintage PCB. What is the first attested use of the term, I wonder? Is it in the patents? Does it go back to the mists of (computer) typing time? I’m guessing it was wasn’t yet relevant for typewriters and teletypes!

It's mentioned in August 1970 at least.

Spoiler:

1970.PNG

Huh, that's really cool! Not surprising, ironically the main reason I want NKRO has to do with typing, not with gaming. At most, with my FK-2001, I couldn't press ctrl, s and either a or d at the same time, but that's a not issue when you remap crouching in most games that use WASD to shift which ends up feeling more comfortable overall. Issue comes in when I'm typing a smidge too quickly and words like "really" come out as "realy" because I hit the first l too quickly and rollover issues with R E and A kick in, which sucks and I hate constantly having to backspace over that.

[hellothere]

You've said enough to make up my mind! It was actually $130 and NOT $250, most I see online go for around 150 but I wasn't sure if that was needlessly inflated and they usually go for less or not

Here's one that sold for $60. You get a boost in $ if the OmniKey is a special variant, like the OmniMac ($338), has blue Alps ($300), or is brand new ($385). There's a significant drop in $ from the lowest price blue Alps ($250) to the most expensive white Alps ($200). However, I do see a couple blue Alps keyboards at that $150 range.

[Polecat]

Huh, I thought the 2nd gens had NKRO but lacked blue alps, guess my research was wrong on the Plus specifically thinking it was closer to the Ultra than the first gen 102

I still need to do more research on the Northgates. The Plus was Gen2 only. And came in at least three different versions, defined by Vendor number (222, 333, or 777). Ultra was made during Gen2, Gen3, and Gen4, with the Gen2 Ultras all (?) being Vendor 777. 101 was Gen2 (101I, 101N), Gen3 (the ANSI 101 most of us are familiar with) or Gen4 (101P). The 102 was the only Northgate model to be available in all four generations. All of the Gen3 and Gen4 Northgates were Vendor 20017. Gen4 models were programmable, with a "P" in the model number and no dipswitches or jumpers. To make matters worse there were different revision numbers for the Gen2 models, which probably had to do with firmware. I have a bunch of Northgates, but not nearly enough to have an example of every version that was made.

The Gen3 and Gen4 models explicitly stated "NKRO" on the PC boards. The Gen1 and Gen2 models did not, which why I pointed out that they may not have this feature. The fact that they made a note of it on the Gen3 PC boards suggests it was something new. I don't type fast enough to tell the difference. Is the presence or absence of diodes a definitive way to tell? That's something I can easily check.

edit: I just opened up a Gen2 Vendor 333 Plus. No diodes and no "NKRO" on the PC board.

[LambdaCore]

Huh, I thought the 2nd gens had NKRO but lacked blue alps, guess my research was wrong on the Plus specifically thinking it was closer to the Ultra than the first gen 102

I still need to do more research on the Northgates. The Plus was Gen2 only. And came in at least three different versions, defined by Vendor number (222, 333, or 777). Ultra was made during Gen2, Gen3, and Gen4, with the Gen2 Ultras all (?) being Vendor 777. 101 was Gen2 (101I, 101N), Gen3 (the ANSI 101 most of us are familiar with) or Gen4 (101P). The 102 was the only Northgate model to be available in all four generations. All of the Gen3 and Gen4 Northgates were Vendor 20017. Gen4 models were programmable, with a "P" in the model number and no dipswitches or jumpers. To make matters worse there were different revision numbers for the Gen2 models, which probably had to do with firmware. I have a bunch of Northgates, but not nearly enough to have an example of every version that was made.

The Gen3 and Gen4 models explicitly stated "NKRO" on the PC boards. The Gen1 and Gen2 models did not, which why I pointed out that they may not have this feature. The fact that they made a note of it on the Gen3 PC boards suggests it was something new. I don't type fast enough to tell the difference. Is the presence or absence of diodes a definitive way to tell? That's something I can easily check.

edit: I just opened up a Gen2 Vendor 333 Plus. No diodes and no "NKRO" on the PC board.

Ah that's a real shame, went ahead and bought it under the assumption it did. Still a very nice keyboard, got it at a cheaper price than it usually goes to as well so I'm not too bummed. According to Deskthority the one I'm getting is a Gen2a as it's dates back to 89 on the back of the chassis

[Muirium]

Ironically the main reason I want NKRO has to do with typing, not with gaming… Issue comes in when I'm typing a smidge too quickly and words like "really" come out as "realy" because I hit the first l too quickly and rollover issues with R E and A kick in, which sucks and I hate constantly having to backspace over that.

Interesting excuse! You sure NKRO keyboards let you get away with that?

There's more than one way to verb a noun, of course:

I have my own routine mistakes. Better patched live than having to correct them manually every time.

It's mentioned in August 1970 at least.

Nice find!

Typing data is easier with built-in "feel" mechanism.

Up there with Feeling of Oneness with cup-rubber now.

[LambdaCore]

Ironically the main reason I want NKRO has to do with typing, not with gaming… Issue comes in when I'm typing a smidge too quickly and words like "really" come out as "realy" because I hit the first l too quickly and rollover issues with R E and A kick in, which sucks and I hate constantly having to backspace over that.

Interesting excuse! You sure NKRO keyboards let you get away with that?

There's more than one way to verb a noun, of course:

I have my own routine mistakes. Better patched live than having to correct them manually every time.

It's mentioned in August 1970 at least.

Nice find!

Typing data is easier with built-in "feel" mechanism.

Up there with Feeling of Oneness with cup-rubber now.

See I only now figured out the issue after using my Matias quiet click for a bit mainly for variety, and I never make that specific mistake. After noticing that I analyzed which keys I frequently use that could be blocked and noticed E and A blocked L. I've noticed even different keyboards in the same series can have different advantages and disadvantages, my later FK-2001 was practically unusable for gaming FPS specifically as it blocked W and 2 and would constantly block switching to the second weapon slot, meanwhile my much older FK-2001 has very few blocks that actually negatively impact me personally.

Unfortunately due to my misunderstanding it is entirely possible the Plus I'm getting might have some rollover issues it's entirely possible some on this board could potentially bother me, or be almost entirely unnoticeable lol that is my Omnikey plus is a 222 vendor it seems which I can't find a ton of solid information on so I'll be sure to update on everything, it's possible it might even have the earlier long switch plate Alps! Probably not though

[hellothere]

> it's possible it might even have the earlier long switch plate Alps! Probably not though
I know that both blue and white Alps were available with a couple of different switch versions. One obvious difference is that some white Alps had a "copper" color spring and others had a "silver" color spring. However, I don't recall seeing any switch plate differences on the relatively early "blank label" OmniKeys white Alps I had. I think I had three. Based on maybe 6 keyboards, the most white Alps switch changes I've seen were on the humble NTCs.

The "blank label" is one of those gold label OmniKey 102s, but the label is intentionally not added. My opinion on these is that they were intended for labeling and sale by another company.

[Polecat]

Here's a switchplate photo from my June 1989 Gen1 102 (Vendor 111):

viewtopic.php?p=386593#p386593

I don't remember if the springs were silver or copper colored. Opening up switches makes me a nervous wreck, but I can check that once the coffee wears off a bit.

I don't have a Gen2 Vendor 222 Plus (I do have a Vendor 222 102...). It would be great to have one documented so we can compare to the 333 and 777 versions. I'm still compiling info and notes, and actual keyboards as I can afford them. I'm not sure exactly what changed, but the controller boards were different at the very least. Gen2 Northgates had the controller electronics on a separate PC board from the switch matrix, and I've seen at least three or four different versions of the controller boards. I haven't yet compared the matrix layout on the different Gen2 models. I think the reason there's no solid info out there on the Northgates is that nobody outside the company has ever figured out all the different versions. If anyone had that knowledge it would have been Bob Tibbetts ("Northgate Bob") but sadly we just lost him.

[Polecat]

The "blank label" is one of those gold label OmniKey 102s, but the label is intentionally not added. My opinion on these is that they were intended for labeling and sale by another company.

I agree on the unbranded Gen1 boards being sold as something else and/or by someone else. Especially since they overlap into the Gen2 date range by quite a bit. One clue is that at least some of them had "101+" stamped on the plate. Not surprisingly (assuming they were made by Focus) they went back to having a black painted plate (vs. silver cad plated) just like Focus keyboards from the same time period, which I've never seen on a Gen2 or later Northgate. So far I haven't identified what these were sold as, but the info must be out there someplace.

[LambdaCore]

Here's a switchplate photo from my June 1989 Gen1 102 (Vendor 111):

viewtopic.php?p=386593#p386593

I don't remember if the springs were silver or copper colored. Opening up switches makes me a nervous wreck, but I can check that once the coffee wears off a bit.

I don't have a Gen2 Vendor 222 Plus (I do have a Vendor 222 102...). It would be great to have one documented so we can compare to the 333 and 777 versions. I'm still compiling info and notes, and actual keyboards as I can afford them. I'm not sure exactly what changed, but the controller boards were different at the very least. Gen2 Northgates had the controller electronics on a separate PC board from the switch matrix, and I've seen at least three or four different versions of the controller boards. I haven't yet compared the matrix layout on the different Gen2 models. I think the reason there's no solid info out there on the Northgates is that nobody outside the company has ever figured out all the different versions. If anyone had that knowledge it would have been Bob Tibbetts ("Northgate Bob") but sadly we just lost him.

I'd be a bit petrified, but assuming it's just a few screws I wouldn't mind gathering some information for you when I get mine. Anything in particular you want me to look out for on my 1989 Gen2 Omnikey plus when it arrives?

[Polecat]

I'd be a bit petrified, but assuming it's just a few screws I wouldn't mind gathering some information for you when I get mine. Anything in particular you want me to look out for on my 1989 Gen2 Omnikey plus when it arrives?

It's not a problem at all if you're not comfortable opening it up. The Gen2 Northgates have six screws on the bottom cover. Remove those and the upper case lifts off. The plate is held to the lower case with four screws. Remove those and the plate and matrix PC board will fold up and back to expose the controller board underneath. Opening it up will also give you a chance to clean out any dust and dirt, and especially to remove any metal objects (staples, paper clips, etc.) that could damage the electronics.

What I'm trying to document is the differences between the Gen2 models (102, Plus, Ultra, etc.) and vendor numbers (222, 333, 777). Specifically the number of dipswitches and what they do, the port configuration (PS/2 only, PS/2 + ADB), and any internal jumpers or switches. And the firmware (EPROM) version. Is the controller board the same as Vendor 333 or 777 Gen2 models? Is the main (matrix) PC board the same as the Vendor 222 102 model, or as Vendor 333 or 777 Plus models? I've been collecting photos and notes on all that, and label info on every Northgate I can find, in hopes of answering those questions and more. Photos of the label(s), controller board, and the matrix/main PC board will answer most of those questions.

[LambdaCore]

Alright, I'll give it a shot once it's in my hands, I'll probably enjoy it the first day, test it's rollover, enjoy the chassis and go get pictures of the dipswitches then open the keyboard and nab pictures of the controller, PCB and what not

[LambdaCore]

My Omnikey is here! It indeed does not have NKRO sadly, but it does sound extremely nice. Some switches don't feel as sooth as my FK-2001, but after transplanting a smooth click leaf into one of the switches, that fixed the problem, the stablizers are also a tad more rattly but I've got some spares I'll transplant. Interestingly these White alps switches have a shorter gold spring as opposed to the usual silver longer spring. The sound is also quite different, sounding a bit deeper on top of the much larger size the chassis feels a tad more stable. I also have the titular omnikey which seems to register but as I suspected does nothing. Despite the condition feeling considerably worse, I actually think I prefer how the switches overall feel to type on this as opposed to my FK-2001 and I can't quite put my finger on why... the switches on this just feel tighter. Oh and just as I was writing this a slight update: reseating the stablizer fixed most of the rattle on the backspace, so all's well at this point.

Yet another update, whoops! I think I figured out what hit me: for some reason typing on this thing feels a lot more like the 2nd gen SMK's I had in my Laser branded keyboard, maybe a little bit stiffer but otherwise the feel is super similar compared to the FK-2001, but what bothers me is these definitely ARE white alps same as the 2001

[Polecat]

Congrats on the Omnikey! Sorry it doesn't have NKRO, but thanks for confirming that for us. I haven't dug out my early Northgates to check the springs yet. That has to be done on a weekend when I haven't had too much coffee, and definitely not on a full moon or a low gravity day. White SKCM Alps are definitely not all the same!

In rebuilding my black FK-2002 I came up with a way to "tighten up" a Focus case, which made a surprisingly big difference in the sound and feel of the keyboard:

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=22072

A bit of silicone grease will quiet down those rattly stabilizers. I don't lube my switches, but stabilizers are fair game to me.

[LambdaCore]

After loving the sound, I recently did something pretty neat: swapped out all the click leaves for tactiles due to how much I utterly loved salmon Alps, and in the Northgate chassis I think might be my personal favorite keyboard! It's smooth, sturdy and it sounds incredible! It sounds less like plastic on plastic and more hitting blocks of wood for lack of a better term!

[fohat]

After loving the sound, I recently did something pretty neat: swapped out all the click leaves for tactiles due to how much I utterly loved salmon Alps, and in the Northgate chassis I think might be my personal favorite keyboard!

I did something similar - I got an Omnikey 101 with white Alps in near-new condition, and I had an AEK with orange Alps in similarly excellent condition. I swapped the "heads" of the orange into the in situ "bodies" and got splendid results.

If Apple had not dreamed up (nightmare?) such an oddball keycap configuration I would have used those excellent PBT caps but alas, it was not to be.

[LambdaCore]

I just replaced the alpha and numeric keys with the PBT caps and left the rest ABS, it works well enough imo, The Salmon alps were in excellent condition but the white alps in the Omnikey weren't as good as my Focus FK-2001 which I already have if I want white alps anyways lol. I DID notice the springs were shorter and golden on these, and the switchplate I could swear is a bit longer, but it's definitely my imagination since it's white, not gray.

[Polecat]

From the wiki:

"Other changes during the 1989–1990 overhaul included switchplate alterations, first to colourless plastic, and then to a shorter version; as with the other changes, these occurred in a series of transitions"

It would be nice to nail down that "series of transitions" more precisely, but knowing Alps it's probably more complicated than we can possibly imagine. They were making hundreds of thousands, or more likely millions of switches per year. Just knowing the manufacture date of the keyboard doesn't help much, because we don't know how many switches were bought at a time, when the order was placed and filled, and even if they were used on a "first in, first out" basis by a given keyboard manufacturer. For instance we have physical evidence that the transition from blue to white Alps in Northgate keyboards wasn't a clean break, based on serial numbers or sticker dates (which don't even agree with each other).

[LambdaCore]

Well it's also true that the switchplate is a complicated combination of parts, so I would be shocked if there isn't a small bit of variation there in of itself.

[hellothere]

CA bit of silicone grease will quiet down those rattly stabilizers. I don't lube my switches, but stabilizers are fair game to me.

Polecat speaks truth. Don't be stingy on the stab lube. I bought a tub of Super Lube in 2020. (Amazon told me when I bought it.) I haven't used more than 10% and I use a fair bit.