New Model M vs Model F Repro

[JCMax]

I've asked how the New Model M compares to the old, and I also asked about how the Mini M compared to the New Model M before that. And it sounded like it was a pretty apples-to-oranges comparison.

But, now I must ask how does the Model F Repro compare to the New Model M? What do any of you guys who have tried both think?

I'm not talking necessarily about how the original Model F boards compare to the New Model M, or even the Old IBM Model M. I'm talking strictly about how did the Repro Ellipse did compare to the Unicomp New Model M. (although you can go ahead and leave your opinions on the original Model F to the New Model M/IBM Model M here, too ).

P.S. I am waiting for the Model F Repro to arrive and I wanted to ask after it got here to see what others thought, but my curiosity has gotten the better of me.

[dfischer429]

I can understand trying to compare the new model F to the old model F, or the new model M to the old model M, but comparing the new model F to the new model M seems kind of strange. They're totally different animals.

I have both, and my F77 blows the New Model M out of the water in so many ways. It has significantly higher build quality, better materials, better keycaps, and it is nicer to type on. The new model M from Unicomp isn't terrible, but it's made out of plastic, has some creak/flex to it, less crisp legends, slightly less pleasant key feel, and just generally looks and feels cheaper in every way possible. But that's because it is cheaper, and the board it's modeled after was cheaper. As far as approximating what they are attempting to reproduce, they both do a good job, although I would say the F77 is better.

It's just a hard comparison to make. If you compared a reproduction of a Porsche and a reproduction of a Honda Civic, the Porsche reproduction which costs 5 times as much is probably going to be better in most ways, no matter how well the Honda Civic reproduction was executed.

[JCMax]

I wanted to compare these two as part of comparing the latest and greatest versions of the Model F to to the Model M. People make comparisons between these two as to who's the better buckling spring. I am not planning on buying an old Model F off of eBay anytime soon due to the pricing and how much work would go into repairing one. Ditto for the IBM Model M.

I know it was kind of strange, but I wanted to compare the latest versions to each other because those are the two that I will probably get to try. So it was more like a Model F to Model M comparison, but based off of their latest counterparts since I will probably only get to try those.

It seems to me that the Model F wins in most people's opinions by a large margin. The new versions are doing such a good job that they are worthy successors to their ancestors and due to that the results are defaulting to the comparisons between the originals.

[Yasu0]

I kind of agree with what fischer says. If somebody made an affordable modern reproduction of a 1988 Civic I would be all over that the same way I was all over a reproduction M. A modern 1988 Porsche 911.. maybe that too if I could scrape together the money.

[Go-Kart]

I understand what you're trying to ascertain, JC. I think one of the things worth mentioning is that Unicomp Ms are modelled on the most recent IBM/Lexmark Ms. Ms were cheapified and cheapified from their first iteration to get to that last generation; and then there was some further cheapification in the Unicomp design too. Still great boards by all accounts though.

Ellipse's F are a reproduction of the highest tier, most OP Fs IBM made. Further, some have claimed that some aspects of the build quality on the repro Fs are even better than the originals. This is absurd considering the reputation of original Kishies and F77s.

I'd always go original, there's just some unspeakable magic and satisfaction there for me. However, I have heard too many good things about Ellipse's F to not consider one. Worryingly, I have priced up a HHKB layout Kishy a few times now...

[Muirium]

Further, some have claimed that some aspects of the build quality on the repro Fs are even better than the originals.

I smell shite.

Ellipse's thread exposes the fact that there is no quality control on these boards, and the people who buy them (after several murky years of waiting) are expected to go through all that experience at home. Yes, yes, "it's just one guy." I get that. But don't grade on a curve! Show your work.

This question today really says a lot for the repro Model F experience. Everything on the new ones is a work in progress, a project not a product. What IBM shipped back in the day was a cut above this stuff.

[Go-Kart]

I'll admit to only appreciating Ellipse project from afar; likely the reason for my overly rosy view of the boards.

[Muirium]

To tweak my grumpy perspective a bit: I respect what he's doing. Without Ellipse, these boards are Unobtainium, simple as that. It's just important not to misrepresent the final product. There are issues, and you're a hell of a lot more likely to get a lemon from him than the price tag would make you expect. It's a one man shop with Chinese batch production. It's a miracle any of it works!

Hmm… still too grumpy.

[Go-Kart]

I guess that's why that Ellipse thread is approaching 250 pages!

[Guppy]

Here's my uneducated opinion on the subject not having the whole story just yet:

I'm using Unicomp's Mini M right now and I can say it's one of the best keyboards I've ever used sans maybe 150 dollar boards with alps switches and specific keycaps in them. I don't know why they've fit with me so well, but I can say that I have gotten all of this value out of mine while still spending less than ~110 on it sans shipping. Which also makes it one of the cheapest mechanical prebuilts I've ever owned.

Still waiting on my Model F Repro but I understand 100% where the differences come from; If you look at old sears catalogs where they sold IBM AT computers; Model F's cost roughly in the range of ~800 dollars adjusted for inflation. These were the cheap model F's, that had already undergone a round of cost saving measures. Eclipse isn't even offering those; he's offering the original early 80's designs that had no cost cutting involved for cheaper.

So yes, there is definitely an argument to be made about the value involved with getting the repro model F, but there's also an excellent argument about the value per dollar of what Unicomp is doing since they really started upping their game. So we get into different strokes for different folks. I remember when the New Model M's shipped in that ugly black case with that bargain bin sticker and blurry keycaps. Not anymore! It's probably one of the best keyboards you can buy for the money at this point.

I've been thinking about bargaining and buying an original IBM PC Keyboard straight from Eclipse as a best of both worlds solution, especially now that Unicomp seems to have pulled their battlecruiser design that I was thinking about for another build.

[stormcrash]

Guppy,

According to the last news posts from Unicomp the unavailability of the M122 battlecruiser was temporary due to shortages/long shipping times in the supply chain for the case resin. Sounds like they just got the new M122 cases and the model should be back on sale soon. Also looks like they had another parts delivery delay I hadn't seen and are a bit backlogged across the entire line right now but sounds like it should be getting chipped away at soon enough

And as a bonus it seems the Mini M has gotten it's CE certification and is now shipping backlogged orders to Europe

[E3E]

Here's my uneducated opinion on the subject not having the whole story just yet:

I just want to say that the marketing pushed the reproductions as the "original" model F keyboards, when that is not what they are.

They are specifically recreations of the 4704 banking terminal keyboards, but I suppose Ellipse thought that'd be too obscure or convoluted to use for promoting his replicas.

Your post really just reads as if you're reciting the marketing material.

That said, the Mini M looks like a neat board and it's cool that Unicomp finally has a TKL option after all of these years. Prices for IBM originals, whether F or M, have gone up along with most other things. It's good to have these on the market.

[Guppy]

Here's my uneducated opinion on the subject not having the whole story just yet:

I just want to say that the marketing pushed the reproductions as the "original" model F keyboards, when that is not what they are.

They are specifically recreations of the 4704 banking terminal keyboards, but I suppose Ellipse thought that'd be too obscure or convoluted to use for promoting his replicas.

Your post really just reads as if you're reciting the marketing material.

That said, the Mini M looks like a neat board and it's cool that Unicomp finally has a TKL option after all of these years. Prices for IBM originals, whether F or M, have gone up along with most other things. It's good to have these on the market.

Actually, you're 100% right, I forgot one of the biggest differences: it was a repro of a banking terminal. So I guess I was reciting the marketing material; again, I didn't say it was an educated guess. I would probably have realized this major difference if I had one here in front of me to compare with, but that probably won't be the case for some time.

Mini M seems like a slam dunk for the company, I'm glad it's been as successful as it has because this one I'm typing on right now has been such a wonder all on its own.

Guppy,

According to the last news posts from Unicomp the unavailability of the M122 battlecruiser was temporary due to shortages/long shipping times in the supply chain for the case resin. Sounds like they just got the new M122 cases and the model should be back on sale soon. Also looks like they had another parts delivery delay I hadn't seen and are a bit backlogged across the entire line right now but sounds like it should be getting chipped away at soon enough

And as a bonus it seems the Mini M has gotten it's CE certification and is now shipping backlogged orders to Europe

That is great news, I look forward to buying one in the near future when they come back into stock.

[mrprofessor]

People have drastically different experiences with Ellipse's Model F repros. It's a really nice board, feels great etc, but it has it's issues. For example mine had some chattering issues due to excess flux on the controller. Pandrew helped me identify and resolve this.

You don't get any support after buying a 400$ board, and it's sad.

Unicomp Mini Ms had some issues too, bjt apparently they were able to resolve it. Their customer service is pretty good and they don't ask monies for "project cost overruns".

[robo]

You don't get any support after buying a 400$ board, and it's sad.

I will say that Ellipse is very responsive in that thread about individual people's issues... OTOH that's a big reason it's 250 pages long!

My repro F77 is due to arrive tomorrow, so fingers crossed

[dcopellino]

My repro F77 is due to arrive tomorrow, so fingers crossed

Great Rubo, enjoy! Someone said that the waiting is the best part.
Just out of curiosity... How long have you been waiting for?

[NathanA]

I've asked how the New Model M compares to the old, and I also asked about how the Mini M compared to the New Model M before that. And it sounded like it was a pretty apples-to-oranges comparison.

With respect, I would suggest that you took the wrong conclusion away from those discussions. On DT, I dare say that you are interacting with obsessives who take note of the smallest differences, both because they care about the subject and also because most others won't. So you may have gotten the impression that the differences between the various Ms are more exaggerated than they really are. Even while IBM was manufacturing the M it evolved over time and subtle changes were introduced over the course of its life. But at the end of the day, an M is an M is an M, and most of the discussions that take place here about the various differences observed over its now 40+ year lifespan come down to subtle manufacturing quality differences (whether real or perceived) and/or slight tweaks in design or materials. Even so, the typing experience on a 1980s M in good shape and the typing experience on a brand-new 2020s Unicomp is largely going to be (IMO) 95% the same, though naturally some people may be more sensitive to minute differences between units/examples than others.

As far as the differences between the various M models go, a New Model M is 100% internally identical to any other 101-105 key Unicomp 'board: all of the Unicomp full-size keyboards from the "Classic" to the "Ultra Classic"/EnduraPro to the "New Model M" have identical membrane-sandwich construction and controller electronics, and it's only the outer casing that differs. You can take the guts from a Classic and drop them into a New Model M: they'll fit. So the New Model M differences all come down to the outer casing/shell, and the main advantages to the new shell from a consumer's perspective are that 1) the molds are new, so the plastic has less cosmetic flaws and blemishes than the shells produced from other (aging) Unicomp case molds, and 2) it has a slightly smaller footprint than the original Model M casing ("Classic", in Unicomp parlance) while still retaining the same basic shape and design language (unlike the EnduraPro-related case designs).

The Mini M is Unicomp's answer to the IBM Space Saving Keyboard. They lost the original IBM case molds for the SSK long ago so had to design and manufacture new ones from scratch. The Mini M is more different than all other Model Ms mostly because the matrix layout was re-worked to allow for more (on average) simultaneous key presses to occur without collisions; that said, the membrane-based M design is inherently non-NKRO, and again the typing feel of a Mini M vs. full-size New Model M is going to be virtually identical. The decision about which one to buy if you are in the market thus mostly just comes down to whether you prefer having a numpad, or prefer having more desk real-estate.

So at least if what you are comparing is key switch actuation feel and the fundamental design of the thing, I see all M comparisons as largely apples-to-apples because all Ms have so much in common with each other that calling one an "orange" strikes me as nonsensical. We're talking more along the lines of "Red Delicious" vs. "Granny Smith" here: both are recognizably the same fruit. It's the M vs. F arena where citrus happens. That both have buckling spring switches, can share the same key caps, and were designed and manufactured by IBM is basically where the similarities end. I'd argue the taxonomy is something along the lines of, Buckling Spring is the "family", M and F are the "genus", and the particular models are the "species". You are left with some objective differences (e.g. NKRO) that are direct consequences of each keyboard's fundamental design, but when it comes to key feel comparisons between the two, that's when you start getting much more into the weeds of subjectivity.

Re: Model F recreations / "original" / b*tching / quality comparison to original / etc., though I for sure have my own gripes about aspects of the project, I also think Ellipse's Fs are a tremendous value for what they are & that what he has managed to accomplish here is nothing short of amazing. Is it expensive relative to the current mass-produced keyboard market? Sure. But that's not his target market. And keep in mind that the 62-key version of the 4704 keyboard had an MSRP of around ~USD$340 back when they were released...so that's in early 1980s USD. These repros are a relative bargain from that perspective, plus he is increasing the overall market supply of these keyboards, and selling at a fixed price (no stressful bidding wars over extremely finite supply). Plus keep in mind that even if aspects of his repros are themselves finicky, if you were fortunate enough to snag an original IBM-manufactured 4704 'board, given how much time has passed as well as how much most known samples were (ab)used, you'd likely have to put in MUCH more work to get an original back up to snuff than you surely will to get your repro working right.

I'm also a big Unicomp fan for the same reason: they're cranking out more Ms and selling them direct-to-consumer for just over USD$100 in today's money where throughout the 80s and early 90s IBM was MSRPing them for > $200. Increasing the total supply of Ms and thus making them available to more people at reasonable prices is only a good thing. Though "mechanical" keyboards continue to fall in price and you can find cheap no-name ones with Cherry-style clone switches in them for under $50 these days, the $100 price-point is roughly where most name-brand mass-produced ones fall. And while some may talk about how Unicomp manufacturing standards are not what they once were under IBM's purview, I argue that they are "good enough" for most, and even perhaps higher than other "mechanical" keyboards sold by other name brands for roughly the same price.

But, yes: a 4704 'board is no more "original" than the 'board that shipped with the IBM 5150 PC or 5160 XT. After all, the 4704 and the PC were released by IBM in the same year. Even so, it's plainly obvious that the PC keyboard and the 4704 keyboard were targeting different markets and the PC/XT keyboard built to a cost. One reason why many F fans were so enamored of the 4704 'boards when they were discovered is because it's the only post-beamspring computer keyboard IBM manufactured with an all-metal enclosure.

[Guppy]

'm also a big Unicomp fan for the same reason: they're cranking out more Ms and selling them direct-to-consumer for just over USD$100 in today's money where throughout the 80s and early 90s IBM was MSRPing them for > $200. Increasing the total supply of Ms and thus making them available to more people at reasonable prices is only a good thing. Though "mechanical" keyboards continue to fall in price and you can find cheap no-name ones with Cherry-style clone switches in them for under $50 these days, the $100 price-point is roughly where most name-brand mass-produced ones fall. And while some may talk about how Unicomp manufacturing standards are not what they once were under IBM's purview, I argue that they are "good enough" for most, and even perhaps higher than other "mechanical" keyboards sold by other name brands for roughly the same price.

I've seen comparisons showing that the New Model M has received a lot of the improvements from the Mini M's tooling refurbishment, from sharper keycaps, better plastics, less flex, to even a better case itself. Even if it's not the 'original' model M mold anymore. I don't have a New Model M to compare it to, but if anyone does have one; It would be nice to hear the perspective on how much they have improved since they have started stepping up their game. As apparently their manufacturing standards are now at or above what they used to be under IBM's purview. As someone who used a Model M quite a bit back when I was a kid: I can say that the Mini M appears to have superior quality from memory alone to the Model M I learned to type on.

[themk]

I love my Unicomp Mini M; it's definitely one of my favorite keyboards and I daily drive it. While Unicomp isn't perfect, and I know they have a lot of unhappy customers at the moment with shipping delays, I do think they are genuinely trying hard to do what they do. QC is generally pretty good but I've heard of minor complaints occasionally. The company is in a bit of a transition phase where they can focus more on consumer products. For the past 25 years, the majority of Unicomps income has been from OEM contracts for other companies. As those contracts become less and less, and enthusiast demand rises, they are slowly turning that direction. Compared to my 2015 and 2019 boards, you can definitely notice a difference. Not everything changed overnight, they've had iterative improvements in quality, but the New M and Mini M you buy today should be the best they have to offer at the moment. Their other products are still made with older tooling (with the exception of the keycaps). The price they charge is more than fair IMO. If you're unsure about Buckling Springs, or just want a new board, definitely get a Mini M (or New M if you need the numpad). I do not have any Ellipse keycaps to compare against, but I will say that retooled Unicomp keycaps are _really_ nice and sharp. Even in just the past year Unicomp dye-sub quality has gone up. While Unicomp has had a couple of now fixed firmware bugs, there are some 3rd-party replacement controllers in the pipeline to allow for full QMK customization of the keyboard. Unicomp still assembles their keyboards in Lexington, KY.

As for Ellipse's Model F reproductions, those are also good keyboards but you need to know what you're getting into. As previously mentioned they have been known for having QC issues, or stuff that needs to be fixed to work right out of the box. It's also significantly more expensive than a Unicomp board. While it's true that Ellipse's Model F reproductions do use metal cases much like the 4704 series did, I'm not sure how much that matters for day to day usage. I would say that if you want a 4704 style keyboard, Ellipse is reasonable considering the materials that go into the board. There's also a couple of nice bonuses like a QMK compatible controller out of the box. For day to day usage though, I don't feel like most of these changes matter, and, keyfeel is fairly similar to the Model M. I don't think it's worth paying the premium over a Unicomp keyboard, unless you really know what you want.

[NathanA]

sharper keycaps, better plastics, less flex, to even a better case itself

Of the four items in your list, the last 3 all have to do with the exact same thing: the exterior chassis. While this is an important part of the keyboard, it glosses over everything else that makes a Model M a Model M but which are all out of sight under-the-hood, such as the membranes, the curved steel backplate, the barrel plate, the springs and flippers, the electronics, etc., much of which hasn't changed at all over the last few years & largely because it hasn't needed to change. (Yes: compared especially to the earliest of IBM-manufactured Ms, some of those things have changed in subtle ways over the decades. But by-and-large all Unicomp-manufactured keyboard "guts" are identical to each other, and are even virtually the same as the "4th-gen" IBM/Lexmark-produced units that the assembly line was cranking out prior to Unicomp's founding.)

As 'themk' also makes note of, it's very hard to pinpoint the exact moment in time that some of the more obvious changes -- like the higher-quality dye sublimation -- actually took place. This didn't necessarily happen in concert with the introduction of either the New M or the Mini M. And it should also be pointed out that that benefit of those improvements isn't limited to those models, either: pretty much any Unicomp keyboard that you order is build-to-order; that is, they assemble your 'board for you after you make your purchase, using the parts that they have on hand at that moment. So, if you order a Classic or a SpaceSaver/EnduraPro or an M122 from them, they're ALL going to come with the improved caps. That kind of improvement is not limited to the New/Mini, because the percentage of parts that ALL of their still-produced keyboard models hold in common with each other is exceedingly high.

I would say that if you want a 4704 style keyboard, Ellipse is reasonable considering the materials that go into the board. There's also a couple of nice bonuses like a QMK compatible controller out of the box. For day to day usage though, I don't feel like most of these changes matter, and, keyfeel is fairly similar to the Model M.

This is where the M-versus-F subjectivity comes into play. Many would actually say that the difference in keyfeel between *any* M and *any* F is night-and-day, and I would be among them (even though I also contend at the same time that the difference in keyfeel *within* the entire M line-up is subtle to the point of not being a real factor, and likewise from one F model to another F model is also largely subtle). I still think that the M is a fantastic board & I happily use one at the office as a daily-driver to this day. But at home I use my F, and not only does it feel quite different to me than any M I've ever used, but without question I vastly prefer the F, largely on account of the lighter actuation force.

I'd agree, though, that the heavy zinc enclosure is not strictly important for "day to day usage", and I'd likely be just as happy with the plastic-encased F AT (specifically the AT on account of the layout) as I am with my F77...but again I bought the F77 repro because it was new, I didn't need to compete with others to buy it, was offered at a set price, it didn't need to undergo a time-consuming clean-up/refurbishment process, and came out-of-the-box ready to plug into a modern PC without needing to be extensively modified. That said, the metal enclosure is truly both impressive and imposing. It also all but guarantees that this keyboard will outlive me...

[Shihatsu]

I smell shite.

What does the build quality (and improvements therein) has to directly do with quality control? Like.... nothing? Either the build has improvements or not. The QC comes after the build, and yes, these boards may or may not QCed after the production, but again: that's afterwards. Your talking some - let me make a citation - shite here.

[Muirium]

You're forcing an inference I didn't make. Though it's an interesting idea now that you raise it: is a product superb if there is no quality control in its manufacture? I suspect not! But it's a surprisingly philosophical question.

No, the shite I called were the "some have claimed" that Gokart mentioned. That's a lot of guff. People can claim that if they like. But they are wrong. OG Kishsavers are top notch, solid, sharp and epic. So much better made than XTs, let alone Model Ms, it hurts to think what was lost. And they don't piss you around like Ellipse's do. IBM actually took pride in producing them correctly.

[NathanA]

OG Kishsavers are top notch, solid, sharp and epic. So much better made than XTs, let alone Model Ms, it hurts to think what was lost.

As noted before, the original IBM PC and the 4074 terminals were made and released in the same year. (In fact, if anything, my searching has led me to conclude that perhaps the 50-key ortholinear "Model 100" was the one and only 4704 keeb released in 1981, and the Models 200-400 came out in either 82-83 or even later. So technically the XT keyboard predates any of the 4704 models that have alpha blocks.) So strictly speaking nothing was "lost" as the XT was not a result of taking the 4704 keyboard design and cost-reducing it. They were contemporaries of each other, each designed for a different market.

And they don't piss you around like Ellipse's do. IBM actually took pride in producing them correctly.

Genuinely curious what specific chronic QC issues with Ellipse's boards you have in mind. I could be missing something (or a lot of somethings), but most of the problems I've heard about, personally observed, or heard people gripe the loudest about largely have to do with software. Not hardware. If that's true then those issues all come down to the fact that his boards obviously all come with a xwhatsit out-of-the-box, and so they are also all issues that you would experience on an IBM-manufactured one from 40 years ago if you stuck that same controller into an original 'board. It's true that we haven't managed to reproduce all of IBM's capsense controller secret sauce yet, but that's hardly Ellipse's fault. I'd wager that if you took an original Kish controller and stuck it in an Ellipse board with a Soarers attached to it, it would function up to your standards.

When it comes to the physical side of things, though, I have yet to encounter anybody who has done, say, an Ellipse vs. IBM comparison in the style of the myriad Unicomp vs. IBM ones where people go on and on about how the build quality and performance of the contemporary option is garbage compared to the originals. If you are aware of such a thing, please point me to it...

[Miky2147]

Hello, in this thread you have talked about interesting arguments and I would like to ask if I can reopen it. I currently use a Realforce Topre keyboard, but reading this forum is increasing my curiosity about the famous Model F / M. For this reason I ordered a Unicomp New Model M, which is very good value for money.

Other than that, I saw that there is user Ellipse who has come up with an excellent quality replica of a Model F (F77). About this keyboard I would like to have more information. Is it true that there is no satisfactory quality control on these keyboards (made in China)? Also does the seller provide a guarantee on the possible malfunction of this F77? I have read comments from some unsatisfied users. This makes me doubt whether or not to proceed with the purchase.

I've been thinking about bargaining and buying an original IBM PC Keyboard straight from Eclipse as a best of both worlds solution

Maybe it would be better to buy this "Original IBM PC AT Keyboard, Thoroughly Cleaned and ANSI Modified with Soarer's Converter"? It seems more interesting to me than the F77. Basically it's a real modified IBM Model F with USB output to be used on a modern PC in a plug & play way, right? I look forward to your kind opinion, thank you

[Muirium]

The linked AT keyboard is a bit overpriced. Also it is *not* ANSI modded as described. That looks like this:



Note the extra keys either side of space bar. AT doesn’t have them unless you do some heavy hacking, including metalwork on the plate. Instead it’s all just one looooooooooooooooooooong spacebar. Takes a lot of getting used to, and 9 years of rocking AT and XT later I still don’t like it.

You are right about the highly variable experiences people are getting with their just as highly variable Made in China Model Fs in the group buy. I’d enter that with a generous, patient and not at all irritable mind. Which I totally don’t have, so I haven’t.

[Miky2147]

Thanks for your kind reply. For the moment I'll just enjoy my Unicomp New Model M!

[Crizender]

I've been thinking about bargaining and buying an original IBM PC Keyboard straight from Eclipse as a best of both worlds solution

Maybe it would be better to buy this "Original IBM PC AT Keyboard, Thoroughly Cleaned and ANSI Modified with Soarer's Converter"? It seems more interesting to me than the F77. Basically it's a real modified IBM Model F with USB output to be used on a modern PC in a plug & play way, right? I look forward to your kind opinion, thank you

Just so you are aware - Ellipse does not actually have these for sale. These Model F AT on his website say "email for more details" so he can give you a sales pitch for his new Model F repros.

That being said, I would say you are much better to stick with the Model M. I have seen quite a few QC issues mentioned on here and elsewhere (such as in Discord servers) so its a buy at your risk. I personally believe that the stock repros when they have good QC are not as good as an original, due to the weighting of the repro springs which are lighter than original Fs.

[JCMax]

I'd say you are making the right decision.

Don't get me wrong, Ellipse did a fine job with the Model F that I got. I don't have an original to compare it with, but the one I got is still a great keyboard. I am not sure if I would recommend paying so much for it when you can get the New Model M sooooo much cheaper. Unless your a hardcore collector/enthusiast.

For me, the only thing the Model F repos really has over the New Model M is how much lighter the springs are. Otherwise, I would be fine with just the Model M.

[Ellipse]

Project coordinator here - a few replies to the more recent points being made here:

You are seeing much discussion of issues on the project thread this year due to me shipping a couple thousand keyboards in recent months. It's nice to receive a note that all is well, but most folks only email/post if there is an issue. If several dozen out of 3,000+ folks are posting with issues that does not indicate mass quality control improvements needed. All of the most common issues are fully addressed in the manual. The top issues are spring adjustment issues, keys that break in the mail and occasionally issues with the controller soldering or a flipper that gets stuck and needs to be moved into place. As opposed to the originals, the end user needs to install the keys and adjust some springs if necessary, which is different from the IBM days when everything was fully installed and tested, driven to the business or computer store by truckers and not by mail for the most part, and just had to be plugged in to start using. Unfortunately the project does not have the economies of scale or time to install all of the key sets as discussed on the project thread; it would add so many variations (dozens of variations multiplied by over a dozen common key sets) and would have added additional months of delay due to installation time.

I would not say that the springs are lighter on the new Model F as they are the same weighting and specifications as the originals. The lightness may be due to the corrosion of the original springs affecting the weight of the IBM originals, combined with the reproductions being new and without all the gunk that clogs up an original (I find the originals to be smoother and lighter after an ultrasonic bath of the plastic components and some alcohol scrubbing of the barrels). Also many folks may not have had access to dozens of original IBM Model F keyboards as I have in my collection over the years - the spring weighting did vary a bit even between examples of the same part number. New F's may be lighter than some original F's and heavier than other originals.

The new Model F keyboards are not buy at your own risk as someone noted here. They are covered by a limited warranty. If a component is damaged and covered under the limited warranty then it will be repaired or replaced. The project philosophy statement in the manual explains why there is no service contract option with a full staff to handle returns, exchanges, repairs, technical support, etc. and instead keeping the keyboard as low a cost as possible, about half what IBM charged (adjusted for inflaction). There is an emphasis on teaching everyone to be able to set up and maintain their new Model F keyboards long after the project is done, so that they can hopefully use it for decades to come.

[pelletik]

I use a Unicomp classic at work. I use an Eclipse Model F at home. My new Model F is my daily driver at home.

My new Model F took about 2 hours to get up and running. I didn’t realize that my bottom right CTRL button was really a function button. The enter key was bad. The stabilizer part of the key was too fat causing it to bind. I took an enter from a Uncomp board and everything is working great.

This is the best keyboard I have ever used. It retired my gen 1 bolt modded model m.