How usable is the Model F XT layout?

[LambdaCore]

I've been given an offer for a model F for only about a hundred bucks, so I'm wondering: is the model F XT layout very usable in the modern day without much fuss? The stepped keys look like a pain but nothing I couldn't manage, what really worries me is that one unit left shift which looks harder to hit, I pretty much exclusively use left shift for both typing and gaming so that could be a deal breaker

[Muirium]

A hundred bucks? Grab it now! Ask questions later.

I used an XT as my first and only mech for about a year, back in 2013. (Recently sold it to a fellow Scot.) It's a superbly built keyboard with magnificent keyfeel and riotous sound. The layout is, of course, its Achilles heel.

How usable it is will depend on you as much as the keyboard. I used mine with a Mac, exclusively, which is quite a stretch for IBM's 1981 design! (Actually just a direct Model F descendant of certain 1970s beamsprings.) You're going to lean hard on Soarer's converter to move things to where you prefer them to be, logically. But the XT's physical layout is what it is, and ultimately that's on you to accommodate.

At that price, I'd nab the board now, see if you like it, and just sell it on if you don't. It'll certainly provide an insight into the Model F experience assuming it's your first.

[AnnoyedWalrus]

Buy it! The XT is an excellent keyboard, weird enough to add character but normal enough to be actually usable. My only gripe is the rather stiff space bar.

Buy it, get a soarers converter, rebind it the way you like it and enjoy!

[vvp]

Buy it, sell for a higher price and get an ergonomic keyboard which has Menu key and Win modifiers

[Muirium]

…Menu key and Win modifiers…

Gross! Who needs that damn menu key? What's your Fn' problem, pal?

[vvp]

This board is full of masochists:
viewtopic.php?t=26363

That being said, I agree that buckling spring feels good. Just not good enough to compensate for the other shortcomings of the old standard XT layout.

[Muirium]

Maybe that key does something on your Windows. (Right click? But with no pointer control? I don't get it.) The Mac ignores it, so I remap it to something arguably useful, then ignore even that myself.

[LambdaCore]

I got the memo! Paychecks still either a day or a few hours away, but once it's here that's mine! I wonder actually, and if this works it will solve one potential issue: can I remove the backslash key and place a full shift from a model M placing it over the socket for the key switch, then use the converter to map backslash elsewhere? Bonus points if it's also possible to remap the nav layer to a proper tnav! If I could do that, I've actually got next to no problems adapting!

Maybe that key does something on your Windows. (Right click? But with no pointer control? I don't get it.) The Mac ignores it, so I remap it to something arguably useful, then ignore even that myself.

Oh and to answer your question, that is it's only purpose on Windows, hell with Windows keys I find myself rarely using them unless I need to access a Windows shortcut, which isn't worth potentially accidentally bringing up the start menu and completely messing up a game I'm playing.

[Muirium]

Well… there's not much you can do for rejiggering physical keys around on an XT. But Hypersphere was into it.

You can absolutely put a proper T-nav in the numpad, by re-mapping the keys. You can even replace the caps with Model M arrow keys. No need to worry about rows, as it's IBM so they're all compatible. What you can't do much about, though, is those larger keys. That's why the XT has its rep. It's a bit inflexible and awkward, but otherwise an amazing piece of kit.

[vvp]

Maybe that key does something on your Windows. (Right click? But with no pointer control? I don't get it.)

I typically use it in a CAD software or document editors. E.g. walking the activity tree in a CAD with arrow keys and Menu key to get the local context menu to access stuff like e.g. Rename. You do not need it if you define shortcuts for all the stuff you would typically do from the context menu.

As for as Win modifiers, I use them to control i3 window manager. I have almost 100 shortcuts using Win modifier there. Win was chosen since it is rarely used by applications and will not conflict with application specific shortcuts.

[Muirium]

You use Win like I use Control on the Mac. Copy = Command C etc. etc., leaving Control mostly free for all sorts of purposes. I use it heavily for my macros.

Nested context menus rings an ancient bell. I vaguely remember using that key for that very purpose back on my Pentium 133 laptop in the mid nineties, to do stuff in Windows 95 quicker from the keyboard than its laughably small trackpad. Been a while!

[Findecanor]

…Menu key and Win modifiers…

Gross! Who needs that damn menu key? What's your Fn' problem, pal?

It's one true name and purpose is Compose !

[LambdaCore]

Damn, that actually sounds cool... well I might have to try that one of these days, though I'd think maybe a secondary layer over the numpad which pre set characters might be more convenient for me.

[vvp]

It's one true name and purpose is Compose !

That works as well. I use Non-US # and ~ for Compose (XkbOptions "compose:102") so that I can keep Menu for its original purpose.

The key's USB HID code is 50. It's typical language mappings are:

Spoiler:

US: \|
Belg: µ`£
FrCa: <}>
Dan:’*
Dutch: <>
Fren:*µ
Ger: #’
Ital: ù§
LatAm: }`]
Nor:,*
Span: }Ç
Swed: ,*
Swiss: $£
UK: #~

But I use that key for Compose.

[fohat]

That's easy.
The XT layout is not usable.

[Muirium]

I used it just fine for a year!

Admittedly, I didn't come back much thereafter, but it is usable. Pleasantly usable is another matter!

[LambdaCore]

I could easily get used to it if I'm able to swap the 1u and backslash keys with a full left shift, otherwise idk!

[Muirium]

Here's one of Hypersphere's pics:



Looks like a 1.25 u and a 1 u cap to me. Maybe you could open it up and swap out the spring for a stabiliser insert. Going inside Model Fs is quite something. Here's the innards of my AT: note the ANSI style Left Shift. (Over on the right: you're looking from below.) That board is easily converted to ISO by swapping its insert for anther spring.


viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9791

Once you're in there, you can indeed move things around. The XT's not as flexible, but I'm guessing you might be able to do something about that ISO style Shift. Unless I'm wrong about the size.

Edit: Now I zoom into the pic I see the inserts aren't installed. You can pop them in later, as they insert from above. But you need the buckling spring and flipper out of the way, first.

Worst case: you can always map both keys to Shift. I'd do that first, just to get used to it.

[Go-Kart]

Since getting an XT a few weeks ago, I've daily driven it and found it to be quite agreeable. Two things keep on catching me out though. The lack of lock lights means that, although toggling between num and nav is easy, it is also easy to forget which one you've previously selected. It still catches me out, even though I've tried to be disciplined by always resetting it to nav after using num pad functions. Second, windows doesn't seem to recognise the print screen function. Been too busy to investigate it, could be something that needs tweaking in my Soarer's, could be Windows, could be the board.

Outside of those two gripes, I've been somewhat surprised at how easy it has been to utilise an XT day to day - I recommend.

[vvp]

Maybe there is a converter version with LEDs.
Technically it is definitely doable.

[Muirium]

To quote Soarer’s docs:

LEDs
Optionally, lock LEDs can be wired up. Useful if your keyboard doesn't have them!
The outputs are active high (each pin puts out +5V when it wants to light the LED).
A resistor is needed inline with each LED. (The value needed depends on the type of LED, 1Kohm is a good starting point for modern high-brightness types).

So yes you can definitely drive a few LEDs from your Soarer. I considered adding them to my box but didn’t bother. The Mac ignores all of them besides Caps Lock anyway!

Can’t you show Num and Scroll Lock state in the Windows taskbar any more? Think they were an option back in my day.

[TNT]

I've been given an offer for a model F for only about a hundred bucks, so I'm wondering: is the model F XT layout very usable in the modern day without much fuss? The stepped keys look like a pain but nothing I couldn't manage, what really worries me is that one unit left shift which looks harder to hit, I pretty much exclusively use left shift for both typing and gaming so that could be a deal breaker

The Model F XT was the first mechanical keyboard I bought after getting interested in the hobby and I've daily driven it for nearly 2 years. I used it for gaming as well as typing. It took some time getting used to having to toggle the Num-key to access the arrow cluster, but XT/PC AT is my favorite layout to this day (take this with a grain of salt, I might be a masochist [also, stepped keys are <3]). I used it with a Soarer's converter but I'd recommend Hasu's now. No issues with the left shift at all and just like you I pretty much exclusively use the left one.

Pretty much instantly I installed an indicator software (CLI) but if I remember correctly I have seen someone mod their F XT to have lock lights, so that might be an option too. If you're at it, I highly recommend you mod your spacebar too (it tends to be a little heavy at default).

As Mµ said, at that price, grab it now, and ask questions later! As everything in this hobby is, it's always about preference and you shouldn't have too many problems getting rid of that thing in case you don't like it.

[LambdaCore]

Gotcha!!! I guess I'll have a lot to try out this next month, shipping will take long but I've got other new boards to try this weekend as well, I believe that's when my Topre 55g comes in which I'm eager to try

[xxhellfirexx]

The Model F XT was the first mechanical keyboard I bought after getting interested in the hobby and I've daily driven it for nearly 2 years. I used it for gaming as well as typing. It took some time getting used to having to toggle the Num-key to access the arrow cluster, but XT/PC AT is my favorite layout to this day (take this with a grain of salt, I might be a masochist [also, stepped keys are <3]). I used it with a Soarer's converter but I'd recommend Hasu's now. No issues with the left shift at all and just like you I pretty much exclusively use the left one.

The IBM XT layout is also my preferred layout (minus the stepped keys, but beamsprings don't have those). I think the layout is just as space saving as the TKL and more practical.

Many people use the keypad with their right hand so there is no relearning there. The middle nav cluster is moved to the left so it can be used with the mouse. I still find my left hand gravitating towards the left side when using non-XT/AT keyboards. To fix this, I mapped 2x left shift to page up, 2x left ctrl to page down, cmd + 2x left shift to home, and cmd + 2x left ctrl to end. Numpad enter is also the best enter key.

The key to the left of the spacebar is command and the key to the right of it is option. The keys are big so they are easy to press without looking. I find having the alt, Windows, menu, and ctrl keys all the same size and beside each other makes it harder to touch press. The key to the right of the shift key is ctrl as Mac OS does not use it much.

Regarding the lack of a caps lock light, Mac OS has a caps lock indicator beside password fields. Karabiner can remove the caps lock delay where the caps lock does not activate when typing quickly.

Regarding the problem of having to toggle the num-key to access the arrow cluster, this has already been solved 40 years ago. Holding shift allows you to use the numpad arrow keys temporarily. Marcin always comes up with great stories and explanations.

https://twitter.com/figma/status/1395445717783613443

[TNT]

Regarding the problem of having to toggle the num-key to access the arrow cluster, this has already been solved 40 years ago. Holding shift allows you to use the numpad arrow keys temporarily. Marcin always comes up with great stories and explanations.

https://twitter.com/figma/status/1395445717783613443

Pfffffffff. I just learned a new thing! I didn't know this until now and I used this layout for such a long time

Also thank you for introducing me to this twitter account

[Polecat]

Regarding the problem of having to toggle the num-key to access the arrow cluster, this has already been solved 40 years ago. Holding shift allows you to use the numpad arrow keys temporarily. Marcin always comes up with great stories and explanations.

https://twitter.com/figma/status/1395445717783613443

Pfffffffff. I just learned a new thing! I didn't know this until now and I used this layout for such a long time

Also thank you for introducing me to this twitter account

Indeed, that's a great tip, even for layouts with arrow clusters. Thanks for sharing!

[Muirium]

Is that a Windows thing? A great deal of the time I'm using arrow keys, it's with Shift held down for a text selection.

@ƛ: When you get your XT: do not pull the spacebar off just like the other caps. It's attached from within. To take it off safely you need to open up your XT. That's when you can mod it to a lighter weight, too. Though I prefer to keep it stock. The rich spacebar is one of Model F's signature moves, along with no homing bumps, which I also like! Try them before you hate them.

[LambdaCore]

Huh, that's the first time someone has referred to me as an actual lambda symbol! Either way, thanks for the heads up, though I'd just keep it stock - maybe I'm just too sentimental but these aren't just keyboards, but pieces of history that should be treated appropriately! That's not to say modifications are bad, I love modifying Alps for example, but only when I know for sure I won't screw it up lol

[Polecat]

Is that a Windows thing? A great deal of the time I'm using arrow keys, it's with Shift held down for a text selection.

According to the post it was a DOS thing going back to the original IBM PC, and included in Windows to be backwards-compatible. They said Apple didn't include or support the use of arrow keys in order to push programmers to use mouse support. Keep in mind the IBM PC hardware and software did not have any mouse support originally; everything was done with the keyboard. Arrow keys, function keys, and key combinations using Ctrl, Alt, and Shift were used until the Mac came out a few years later and the IBM users decided they wanted a mouse too..

[AnnoyedWalrus]

Regarding the problem of having to toggle the num-key to access the arrow cluster, this has already been solved 40 years ago. Holding shift allows you to use the numpad arrow keys temporarily.

Thank you. This really helped me, it is like being told about the Ctrl+Esc shortcut all over again!