What stem/spring combos have you tried?

[longweight]

The aluminium caps need a bit more support from the springs I think. What is clear springs on a brown stem called? Has anyone done this before?

[off]

What is clear springs on a brown stem called?

iirc 'a waste'.
And Limmy's preference listing (previous page), last in line was brown with a black spring.

[ripster]

You lose all tactile bump.

[off]

It is getting me curious though-
these browns o' mine really go back and forth between too much (slightly scratchy/sticky) and too little (bumpless)..

[ripster]

Easy to try. I just use the RipOpad.

[captain]

Y'all need to fully analyze your systems, then isolate and test. No one seems to have included friction forces in any of these analyses. Don't forget that static friction is different than kinetic friction. Spring constants are just that. I like limmy's experiment;isolate the springs and test. Now, someone needs to isolate the switches and test friction forces: static and kinetic. Kinetic are really the important ones. It's not like we type with nickels.

My totally subjective tests lead me to conclude that blues FEEL lighter. Reds only slightly heavier, browns slightly heavier, and blacks much heavier. I would hazard a guess that blues feel lighter due to looser sliders, therefore less kinetic friction force. Reds don't have any tactile bump notch, like browns, and I'd guess that is what makes browns feel ever so slightly more stiff.

I don't have time to do the testing, but I'd like to see someone run with these theories.

[webwit]

Doesn't this have the opposite effect of what you're arguing? Static friction is higher than kinetic friction, hence the browns will feel even lighter when typed on than measurements, when compared to the blues. I tested activation at 43g vs 48g for the blues, so I don't see how the blues can feel lighter due to dynamic friction.

[7bit]

Blue isn't lighter. Maybe the click bump is harder so the rest of the travel feels lighter by comparison?

[ripster]

Y'all need to fully analyze your systems, then isolate and test. No one seems to have included friction forces in any of these analyses. Don't forget that static friction is different than kinetic friction. Spring constants are just that. I like limmy's experiment;isolate the springs and test. Now, someone needs to isolate the switches and test friction forces: static and kinetic. Kinetic are really the important ones. It's not like we type with nickels.

My totally subjective tests lead me to conclude that blues FEEL lighter. Reds only slightly heavier, browns slightly heavier, and blacks much heavier. I would hazard a guess that blues feel lighter due to looser sliders, therefore less kinetic friction force. Reds don't have any tactile bump notch, like browns, and I'd guess that is what makes browns feel ever so slightly more stiff.

I don't have time to do the testing, but I'd like to see someone run with these theories.

The $5k testing machines I believe use kinetic testing. Just like nickels IF you drop from the top of the stroke through the pretravel(like your fingers pushing down at 99.80665 m/s2.

Cherry Catalog of Definitions.png (439.91 KiB) Viewed 5179 times

Try it and you'll see.

Thought experiments only work if you are Einstein. Newton had it right.

Try it.

You'll LIKE it!

RipOmeter

Meanwhile in China.........

IhCXT.png (311.42 KiB) Viewed 5180 times

[huttala]

Am I the only one thinking of an Fleshlight when I see this?
Chinese people are dirty, very dirty indeed..

[Soarer]

Doesn't this have the opposite effect of what you're arguing? Static friction is higher than kinetic friction, hence the browns will feel even lighter when typed on than measurements, when compared to the blues. I tested activation at 43g vs 48g for the blues, so I don't see how the blues can feel lighter due to dynamic friction.

Blue isn't lighter. Maybe the click bump is harder so the rest of the travel feels lighter by comparison?

Blue is lighter at the beginning of the downstroke.

But this could be down to a slight difference in the spring specification rather than any friction effects.

Also blue is possibly slightly less work (area under the line) to press, or roughly the same.

brown_vs_blue.png (57.64 KiB) Viewed 5154 times

[ripster]

No, it's because during the "click" BOTH Alps and Cherry MX have a relatively friction free phrase.

I really should write up the physics of this sometime.

FOR SCIENCE!

- Dr. Ripster

[Soarer]

That may be another factor, but it does not negate what I said!

[ripster]

Springs COULD be different.

But what A Cherry Corp Industrial Engineering fuckup if it was. 3x the inventory headaches for NO change in feel.

The Internet hobby forums are FILLED with unsubstantiated rumours.

I call this the McRip Effect.

[Soarer]

Graph shows about 10cN difference at the top of the travel.

Subjectively, even I can feel that difference, and I'm a clumsy heavy-handed oaf that likes XMs!

It's a FAR bigger difference than between their peak forces before activation.

[ripster]

That is interesting.

But then the Cherry Corp graphs aren't all that accurate.

I'll dig up Silenciums sometime.

This seems to dispute it.

[Soarer]

Those tests and my tests both found blue springs to have a slightly greater slope / spring rate, which actually supports what I'm saying.

True, not enough to give a 10cN difference at the top of the travel, even allowing for some error in manufacturing and measurement.

Yet the difference in the switches is noticable, so the graph isn't totally wrong.

[ripster]

Why not just ask Cherry Corp?

I would but my German is terrible.

Sure LOOK the same.

[Soarer]

Sure LOOK the same.

In that pic, blue has about 1/2 turn less than brown.

[ripster]

Nope. Or at least in RL it doesn't. Compare.

IIRC Sandy55 called them identical as well

[Soarer]

It's obvious You can see each wind of the blue taking more space than the brown

[ripster]

I still count 13 coils on each.

[itlnstln]

The blue spring is turned the opposite way from the brown. The two springs in the pic are identical.

[ripster]

Even if they weren't there HAS to be some manufacturing variance.

Remember the Filco PING manufacturing DEFECT?

At least we all got some LOLs from THAT one!

[Soarer]

The blue spring is turned the opposite way from the brown.

No.

It looks that way at the top.

But not at the bottom.

Therefore there is 1/2 turn difference.

That doesn't happen by accident.

[ripster]

Take a look at 10 of them and report back!

Otherwise I would not change the wiki here.

Feel free to change the Geekhack Wiki.

I don't give a shit what you and Limmy do to that one.

[ripster]

Hmmmm..

This needs WORK!

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_modification

[Soarer]

Typical ripster. Realizes that the springs in his pic are NOT the same, and do NOT prove his point, so makes a different argument.

Why don't you put your energy into finding some other reason why blues are lighter than browns at the top of the travel?

[ripster]

Typical Soarer.

Always Soarer about Ripster.

Go troll KL at GH, remarkably easy.

[itlnstln]

The easiest way to solve this is to get a handful of springs from blue and brown switches to see how they nominally compare, thus ruling out things like manufacturing variances. Seeing as the variance listed by Cherry is +/-15g.(right?), 1/2 to a full coil might not be out of tolerance.