What stem/spring combos have you tried?

[Limmy]

OK, I got an idea. How about we agree that IF there are differences they are in the 2 to 3g range?

And therefore well within McRip Effect territory?

April 1 Limmy, an American thing.

How about We Smokeum Peace Pipe?

Another way of saying that "identical" is still open to debate!

I agree the findings so far are not conclusive and thus open for debate. But the way you viewed my initial observations was not from someone who was open for debate. You called it a joke, end of story.

I agree the differences are small, but I don't agree it is in the range of McRip effect. What is McRip effect anyways? The term is so loosely defined and anything could be called McRip Effect. You call everything I point out McRip Effect. I understand your fondness of your own theory, but the theory has only little value at least to me.

And what is Peace pipe? The video is about stopping pollution and I am not getting the message. Is it related to peace treaty? It is you who is provoking me by saying I am crazy every now and then. If you stop that all would be fine, don't you think?

[off]

This is nonsense, since

Thanks for that non-reply.
Anyhow, I just read a post by Limmy, saying "that the sliding surface of a slider is much smoother on a vintage browns compared to my reds", I take it that is what you were referring to earlier? The stem itself being smoother?

So O vs X, which means which? X meaning simply 'with' and O 'without'?
For me it is more logical the other way around, seeing how on for instance a form you could have empty boxes 'O's, and checked boxes 'X's after crossing the boxes.

Yes, O means with and X means without. OX classification is natural for a Korean, but I just realized it may not be for others.

Well it is natural for me, only with the reverse meaning to what's natural to you
Awkward. Now I'm curious, why does O mean yes/with, and X no/without to you Koreans?

1. I created files for each combination so that you could see the effect by arranging the files in a certain way.
2. Tab key
I tried to depress the key with similar force before and after the lube. Without lube the switch bottomed out hard sometimes because of sudden movements.
3. Stickers
I used 3M filament tape(897) as a substitute for the sticker specifically designed for the purpose.

1.Awesome, 2/3.Appreciated.
So did you cut the holes in the tape manually or punch them with something? Or did you just put slices of tape on all sides?

So sure, it hardly matters to most people, but I'm still curious to find out whether they are meant to be different.

Ey voila, scientific curiosity.

[Limmy]

Well it is natural for me, only with the reverse meaning to what's natural to you
Awkward. Now I'm curious, why does O mean yes/with, and X no/without to you Koreans?

I think it is because there are several instances where it is used in such way. For instance, True / False questions are called OX questions in Korean. Also, O is used to indicate something is right where as X usually goes for marking of something incorrect. O is considered check mark and X usually used to cross out incorrect information. I don't know if what I have said answered to your question, but I think I have explained how O and X are used in Korea.

So did you cut the holes in the tape manually or punch them with something? Or did you just put slices of tape on all sides?

I have not tried the stickers designed to fit MX switches, but I thought two strips of tape would have identical effects. I cut the tapes about 1mm wide. Putting the piece of thick tape in between bottom and upper housing of a Cherry switch locks the binding of the two pieces more securely hence eliminates rattling sound when a switch is depressed. I think MP3 files(in a zip file) and the images in the following link( http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3681762 ) would be helpful to you. I visualized the rattling sound by opening the recordings on a sound editing software. In the image files the top part is without stickers and the bottom part is with stickers. There are two images one with key cap and one without.

I heard from one member that vintage switches do not rattle as much as the new ones, but I didn't get to experience that myself yet. To see if your switch rattles, push the slider all the way without key cap and see if the upper housing of the switch moves when you move around your fingers. I also have plate mounted switches and they rattle too, so I think the problem is both seen in PCB and plate mounted switches.

[off]

For instance, True / False questions are called OX questions in Korean.
O is considered check mark and X usually used to cross out incorrect information.

Clear as crystal. Just weird.
However we westerners do use X to cross out things and a check mark is like a V only with the first diagonal only half as long. /trivia

thought two strips of tape would have identical effects. I cut the tapes about 1mm wide.
To see if your switch rattles...

I don't even have to check, I know exactly that/how the tops move about.
Cheers!
Now subjectively, do you *like* what that diy stickermod did to the board (and would you do that again)?

Limmy's pic+mod, from http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3681762

Limmy's diy cherry switch sticker mod and binderclip-keycap-puller 2012-02-26 02.40.30.jpg (79.93 KiB) Viewed 6113 times

And good to refind that binderpuller, was that your 'invention'?

*sheesh, reading the topic title again... this is pretty far off-topic. oh well, good info nonetheless

[kint]

What nobody's done yet that would be interesting to see is take pics of 10 blue, 10 red and 10 brown springs, and count the coils and average them out. Showing one sample of each here and there only suggests manufacturing variance. ... ...This is DT, not GH.

Well has been done, except for picturing it. Common sense applied I put the spring on a screwdriver, twist it till I spot the first coils very rise as a beginning and start counting coils from there to top. Remaining coiling of the 1/4, 1/2 kind are easy to spot, but may have an error of a 1/4 of a winding, which is rather irrelevant because we're talking 1/2 of a winding difference here, so what.
Important point is: If there is consistency in my counting this will lead to relevant conclusions - because I apply the same method to blue and brown springs.
Whole point of that is to show a difference of coil count between brown/blue, maybe red (don't have those, but can count more sets of blues).
It's not and can't be an objective evaluation of the exact count of the spring itself, which obviously is worthless anyhow because of this:

...Far better to actually measure the force at a few compressions - just as limmy and I have started to do. Counting coils means nothing if there's a variance in the wire thickness or something. ...

In other words: First let's tackle the "brown/blue are the same" statement, then think of ways to point out how much different they really are.

btw I don't think that there is much variance in the wire thickness for rather similar springs. It doesn't make much sense production wise. Now there may be a difference in wire thickness over the years because of suppliers change of specs, etc..

[Limmy]

Well has been done, except for picturing it. Common sense applied I put the spring on a screwdriver, twist it till I spot the first coils very rise as a beginning and start counting coils from there to top. Remaining coiling of the 1/4, 1/2 kind are easy to spot, but may have an error of a 1/4 of a winding, which is rather irrelevant because we're talking 1/2 of a winding difference here, so what.
Important point is: If there is consistency in my counting this will lead to relevant conclusions - because I apply the same method to blue and brown springs.

I like your way of counting active coils. Starting from the rise totally makes sense. Here is kint's result for some who didn't follow this thread closely. And yes, I agree the counting of the coils doesn't fully describe a spring. Thickness of wire and the material used also play important role. But the systematic difference in number of coils is more than enough to conclude that two sets of springs are designed differently.

totally unscientific, but I just opened two boards to check.
10 random blue ones:
9 had a coil count of 12,5. One was 12,25.
10 random brown ones:
7 had a coil count of 13,0. One I did count as 13,25, two as 12,75.

I don't even have to check, I know exactly that/how the tops move about. Cheers!
Now subjectively, do you *like* what that diy stickermod did to the board (and would you do that again)?

Yes, I would do the sticker mod again, if a board is PCB mounted(less work obviously). I like the sound of it after the mod so much better which is entirely subjective. By the way, some like the sound of switches with some rattling noise because without such audible feedback they think typing is not so interesting. However, deafening rattling sound made other noises more pronounced. Spring scratching against sliders is the one that I noticed after the sticker mod. So, when I do it, I would at least lube the springs so that it doesn't make unwanted noise.

And good to refind that binderpuller, was that your 'invention'?

No, I just reintroduced the tool. It has been used way back in 2006 probably before. See http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/119861 Among the comments in the post, one member mentioned two of the tools can be used in the way I introduced in the other post. You can see more ideas on the opening tool here on DT in here: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/how- ... t2130.html

[Soarer]

...
It's not and can't be an objective evaluation of the exact count of the spring itself, which obviously is worthless anyhow because of this:

...Far better to actually measure the force at a few compressions - just as limmy and I have started to do. Counting coils means nothing if there's a variance in the wire thickness or something. ...

In other words: First let's tackle the "brown/blue are the same" statement, then think of ways to point out how much different they really are.

Yes, that

It's not worthless to count coils, and certainly I think it helps for anyone measuring spring forces to record coil counts as well. It's also easier for people to do, and all information is useful - the more we have, the easier it is to spot any patterns. Measuring forces is more definitive, but harder to do. Even if I had the time to measure lots of springs, I don't have a large enough collection of differently aged 'boards to examine.

[off]

What is clear springs on a brown stem called?

iirc 'a waste'.
And Limmy's preference listing (previous page), last in line was brown with a black spring.

Quoting myself ftw.








Just ran across posts I'd read and forgotten a long time ago over at GH, perhaps my memory wasn't that correct; opinions do deviate:
Soarer: "Having tried both clear and the black spring / brown stem combo, I can say they are noticably different. I quite like the combo.
Black spring + brown stem is to browns as greens are to blues... so applying the same shift in hue they are ghetto purples "
Findecanor: "I have tested Cherry Clear stem and Blue/Brown spring. It is not that much like a Brown. The longer tactile bump and steep increase in force of the Clear is still there, just softer."
Both from the glue-your-own-browns comment-thread.


Oh and rips, do post that Tyler pic; curious (cat)!

[Soarer]

Heh, I'd forgotten that post! Ghetto purples is quite a good name, if a bit cryptic

Actually, the main thing you can take from that is that I don't like clears (or ergo-clears, for that matter). In the end, it turns out I like my brown stems with brown springs best.

[ripster]

Oh and rips, do post that Tyler pic; curious (cat)!

Click to enter Tim Tylers world. NSFW (Not Safe For Weirdness)


I made a vow when I reached that level of weirdness to find a new hobby!

[off]

Did anybodey successfully remove the rub-rub feature of the reds and other modern Cherry switches (without the need to type the switches in)?

tim tyler did

And it probably wasn't clear, but I've seen his site some time ago; guy went nuts with switches then nothing afaik.
So I was asking about this specific mod he did to fix cherry reds, does it exist (and how much of the red is left )?
Ah yes, the question wasn't specifically of reds; and though i do remember faintly that tyler tried reds but didn't find that just now, he did indeed (forgot that part) cut springs and stems up a bit. According to his numbers reducing from around 65 to 20cN force required for the switch. The challenge is ofcourse once again uniformity (apart from if you'd even like to type on such light switches; he did, hence continued on to microswitches; ofc old news for most).

also a cheap and easy mod, just fugly and includes probably a plastic stem, a metal lever, and a metal leaf spring.

yand it's not safe from weirdness rip, one word to make a diff.

Soarer, browns are now you actual favourites (top switch)? Or just rather those than the clear-mods?

[Soarer]

Soarer, browns are now you actual favourites (top switch)? Or just rather those than the clear-mods?

Standard browns are pretty much my favourite Cherry switch, but what I was trying to say is I think the brown spring is what suits the brown stem best, out of all the choices I've tried. What would interest me is a slightly higher spring rate, but with the same activation force, which would give slightly more resistance at the top of the travel. (I haven't tried red springs in them yet, _possibly_ that would be in that direction, but probably not enough to be worth it).

Blues are a close second... but I always wish I could chop off that loose first 1mm of travel. Still trying to figure out a tidy and reliable way to do that.

[off]

Blues are a close second... but I always wish I could chop off that loose first 1mm of travel. Still trying to figure out a tidy and reliable way to do that.

Well, how about an O-ring? (on the blue shaft, above the white plunger)

*don't have blues, so going by animations only.

[Soarer]

Blues are a close second... but I always wish I could chop off that loose first 1mm of travel. Still trying to figure out a tidy and reliable way to do that.

Well, how about an O-ring? (on the blue shaft, above the white plunger)

*don't have blues, so going by animations only.

Hmm, I don't think that would work - the clicky part is captive on the stem and only has that 1mm or so to move, so it wouldn't click any more. It would still be interesting though - a bit like a brown, but lighter, and with the activation point moved up 1mm.

I think it would have to be something fitted inside the shell, that stops the whole slider coming up to the top. But there's very little room in there, and anything like an o-ring or washer wouldn't fit. It's just two tiny little tabs that stop the slider from being pulled out of the shell - it's surprising we don't see more cases of that happening when changing keycaps!

This is what I'd be after - a hair trigger... but quite likely it wouldn't reset properly or something

blue_taut.png (9.56 KiB) Viewed 6056 times

[ripster]

How are those GH Cherry MX wiki edits going!

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title= ... Final+Note


Yeah, I've never been into fiddling with the switches. This Cherry MX Brown SPOS isn't bad, isn't bad AT ALL!

[off]

Blues are a close second... but I always wish I could chop off that loose first 1mm of travel. Still trying to figure out a tidy and reliable way to do that.

Well, how about an O-ring? (on the blue shaft, above the white plunger)
*don't have blues, so going by animations only.

Hmm, I don't think that would work - the clicky part is captive on the stem and only has that 1mm or so to move, so it wouldn't click any more. It would still be interesting though - a bit like a brown, but lighter, and with the activation point moved up 1mm.

Perhaps you misunderstood, I meant above the white plunger, blocking that from ever touching the wider blue part; being free to click down while blocking the first (to you annoying) first mm of wiggle, locking it in place on that spot ready to plunge.

[Soarer]

Perhaps you misunderstood, I meant above the white plunger, blocking that from ever touching the wider blue part; being free to click down while blocking the first (to you annoying) first mm of wiggle, locking it in place on that spot ready to plunge.

No... I understood that But the white bit can only move about 1mm away from the blue part - there's little tabs that stop it moving further, and which pull it back up on release.

[ripster]

Pretty much.

[Soarer]

Pretty much.

Eh? Not sure which post you're responding to there!


Anyway, this is what I mean by the tabs that hold the white part on...

blue_stem_without_white_bit.jpg (433.92 KiB) Viewed 6029 times

(fuck white balance...)

[ripster]

somebody asked a question about Brown Vs White Cherry MX being the same then deleted their post.

How are those Cherry MX wiki edits going?

TIL you can delete your own posts at LEAST within 51 minutes of posting. Or maybe it's all the way up to the next time somebody posts. Now THAT is logical.

Oh wait...

[off]

Pretty much.

Eh? Not sure which post you're responding to there!


Anyway, this is what I mean by the tabs that hold the white part on...

blue_stem_without_white_bit.jpg

(fuck white balance...)

I don't see a scale on that pic, but judging from here it appears to me that that split is a bit more than a mm; perhaps enough to slide a tiny elastic band (o-ring) in between; ofcourse how much remains of the click is to be seen in testing.
Seeing that pic does make it clear that the band should not be on the round stem in the middle but over the two outer parts ('arms') that hold the white clicker. Curious! Do try if you have any available and let us know/hear!

[ripster]

This might help. Click might NOT go away with an O-ring. It's the tabs slamming against the white piece that make the Click.

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/c ... _click.swf

But given that it goes away even with a drop of oil I bet it would.

[off]

This might help. Click might NOT go away with an oring.

Ha, quick edit!
Was gonna say 'back up your statements of solid undisputed truth a bit more often if you would'.
Anyhow, as I said the only references I have *are* those animations, and this one does only reinforce what I just said..
Afaiu the click comes from the popping down of the white clicker, hence a stop above the clicker shouldn't kill any click, only the clickback that presumably occurs when you bottom out a blue.
Honestly I'm looking forward to the results of anyone testing this. I will, but only once 7bit's switches arrive, and seeing how that might take a while (and my camera/setup/photoskills are not quite HQ) I'd love to hear/see what the result is from anyone else!

[ripster]

Not me, I'm going to take pics of that weird Cherry MX WHITE switch and figure out why it doesn't act more like a MX Green.

How are the Geekhack Cherry MX wiki edits going guyz?

[Kaleb]

Did anybodey successfully remove the rub-rub feature of the reds and other modern Cherry switches (without the need to type the switches in)?

tim tyler did

And it probably wasn't clear, but I've seen his site some time ago; guy went nuts with switches then nothing afaik.
So I was asking about this specific mod he did to fix cherry reds, does it exist (and how much of the red is left )?
Ah yes, the question wasn't specifically of reds; and though i do remember faintly that tyler tried reds but didn't find that just now, he did indeed (forgot that part) cut springs and stems up a bit. According to his numbers reducing from around 65 to 20cN force required for the switch. The challenge is ofcourse once again uniformity (apart from if you'd even like to type on such light switches; he did, hence continued on to microswitches; ofc old news for most).

I know this is an old thread, so maybe no one will see this question...
but I just have to ask, because I have searched, but came up empty...

?What is the "rub-rub feature of the reds"??