Split ergonomic keyboard project

[bisl]

Ah, ok, seems DeathΩRay = JesuswasaZombie

[litster]

Just a question, why is there a gap between the most right (on the right keyboard) key column and the main keys?

That's because I don't have 1.5x keycaps for those switch locations.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Litster, that looks great.

I'd be in for a GB for at least the PCBs as long as Canadians can get a maple-syrupy piece of the order. And if the final design requires a mounting plate, then that too.

[Ian S]

Is there an advantage to a plastic mounting plate with this design?

I got the impression that the 2mm or so steel plate was there to protect the PCB from cracking under the onslaught fustigation from overwrought gamers. If so it might have saved one of my Cherry G80-1000 from such a fate.

Also might it alter the resonance noise of the PCB? Those old Cherry's were a LOT louder that these QPADs I have.

Does the plate reduce or stop wobble of the lower part of the switch in normal use?

[AloisiusFauxly]

Is there any way to get a set of just the PCBs right now? Just found out about my local Maker Space and their 40W laser cutting rig so I'm thinking that I could do the entire case and plate myself.

[lowkey144]

I decided to make a custom multi level layout for the ergodox, with the goal of being useful to mathematicians and prgrammers and anyone else who might need some ideas about layering. since I have not typed on the ergodox yet, I cannot say that all the placements will feel right, but I think that it gives a good idea of what is intended. The base layout will only really be useful to people who also type with the "QGMLWY" layout, but my approach to the numbers and symbols across the top row might be interesting. All the other layers are not final, but they convey the general idea of having a whole load of options activated by a function hold with the other hand. I have highlighted what the opposite hand is doing in each case, I hope that it is clear. The whole setup was inspired by the space cadet for the MIT lisp machines.

Image gallery (higher res, might be slow) with all layers here.
Math layer:


This whole project is very exciting; the group buy cannot happen soon enough.

If there is any interest, PM me and I will send the layered svg that I used to create the pngs.

[Icarium]

I'm generally not convinced that layouts don't depend on personal usage too much to share but whatever, I like discussing them.

I'm not sure the QGMLWY layout makes a lot of sense here. Only letter keys are optimized for that and the great new thumb keys were not considered.

I think I would prefer the super keys somewhere in the thumb cluster. I'm not sure that two of them are really necessary but it depends on preference and where the letters for various combinations are.

The super keys might be better used for the "Math" and "Greek" modifiers which especially for programming contain lots of important symbols.

I also don't understand why you have replicated the function keys on both sides, there don't seem to be that many complicated shortcuts involing those.

I miss easy access to the numbers (still not convinced that middle row is easy enough to access for fluent typing) and can't find the arrow keys at all.

[dirge]

Is there any way to get a set of just the PCBs right now? Just found out about my local Maker Space and their 40W laser cutting rig so I'm thinking that I could do the entire case and plate myself.

If your making cases, make lots not just one. It's a community project, if you can help out I'm sure it would be appreciated.

[Icarium]

Hacker spaces usually dislike being used as production facilities.

[lowkey144]

I miss easy access to the numbers (still not convinced that middle row is easy enough to access for fluent typing) and can't find the arrow keys at all

arrow keys...

About the numbers, my thinking is that if you are already generally proficient with numpads then Num(left) + number(right) would be just as fast as the long stretches even though both hands need to participate.

I also don't understand why you have replicated the function keys on both sides, there don't seem to be that many complicated shortcuts involving those.

I threw them in at the end. The duplication of F keys across both boards was also a last minute thing.

I'm not sure the QGMLWY layout makes a lot of sense here.

I am actually not sure what you mean... I type with that layout, so that is why it makes sense for me, in the same way that dvorak or colemak make sense for those who use them.

I think I would prefer the super keys somewhere in the thumb cluster. I'm not sure that two of them are really necessary but it depends on preference and where the letters for various combinations are.

The super keys might be better used for the "Math" and "Greek" modifiers which especially for programming contain lots of important symbols.

I really need to type on one to make a decision on Super, Enter, Delete, Backspace, Shift, Greek and Math because my hands need to understand where they will be and how they will need to move. All I can do now is imagine, and I am sure I will change quite a few things once I have the beast assembled

If you want I can modify and pm the layout to your specs while I am working on it, for you to mull over. You want a single Fn key, single super in thumb cluster, map math and greek to where the supers were, and your numbers back in the normal typing layout? What is your normal layout? Dvorak, qwerty, colemak?

I couldn't decide on backspace(not mapped at all in the pics) so I will be trying out various remaps anyway.

[suka]

... custom multi level layout ... being useful to mathematicians and programmers...

Have a look at how the guys at neo-layout.org implemented their layers 3&4:

Pretty well thought-out layout of programmers keys:


Navigation and numbers:


I've been using these layers on my split board (also without the top row) and would never want to go back again.

[Icarium]

I'm currently using neo as well the extra layers are AMAZING. The only keyboard I know of that has these in hardware is the Datahand.

I miss easy access to the numbers (still not convinced that middle row is easy enough to access for fluent typing) and can't find the arrow keys at all

arrow keys...

Uh... did I miss something? I mean those four buttons that are usually between the alpha block and numpad, just below the editing block.

About the numbers, my thinking is that if you are already generally proficient with numpads then Num(left) + number(right) would be just as fast as the long stretches even though both hands need to participate.

I totally agree on the idea of an integrated numpad. Just wanted to reiterate that the actual key you used for the "num" modifier might be annoying to press. I tried pressing "h" with my left hand a couple of times and didn't like it, that's all.

I'm not sure the QGMLWY layout makes a lot of sense here.

I am actually not sure what you mean... I type with that layout, so that is why it makes sense for me, in the same way that dvorak or colemak make sense for those who use them.

Just wanted to stress that the layout is not optimized for this particular board. Sticking with it makes total sense but switching to it may not.

If you want I can modify and pm the layout to your specs while I am working on it, for you to mull over. You want a single Fn key, single super in thumb cluster, map math and greek to where the supers were, and your numbers back in the normal typing layout? What is your normal layout? Dvorak, qwerty, colemak?

I couldn't decide on backspace(not mapped at all in the pics) so I will be trying out various remaps anyway.

We should probably get some of those optimizers working and mess with our own metrics.

[lowkey144]

@suka

Thank you for that info, it is indeed well thought out, I will import it into my workspace and give it some close consideration. I am disturbed that I have not seen that before.

I love the placement of the parens, I think that right off that is something to emulate.
I have Haskell in mind, so I will be choosing different symbols as primaries, and I had not given much thought to common superscripts either.
Splitting the slashes does seem better than the single key arrangement I have currently...
This whole process is quite the fun distraction.

@Icarium

We should probably get some of those optimizers working and mess with our own metrics.

I totally agree, and it will be really interesting to find out what falls out of the gradient descent when code and not English writing is the subject of review. Though I must say that much of my time when programming is not spent solely manipulating text, so I will probably utilize a mixed training set. And then there are the disparate binding that are program specific. This kind of thing will end up being personal.

Uh... did I miss something? I mean those four buttons that are usually between the alpha block and numpad, just below the editing block.

Bad attempt at a Vim-ish joke, but I rarely ever touch the arrows, so I didn't really think about including them. The Fn layer seems like the place, or maybe have them on a toggle for games, I don't really know.

I tried pressing "h" with my left hand a couple of times and didn't like it, that's all.

Agreed, pinkie feels more normal.

[AloisiusFauxly]

If your making cases, make lots not just one. It's a community project, if you can help out I'm sure it would be appreciated.

As Icarium said, I don't know how they would feel about that. Plus, the cases that dox and litster have shown off are likely much better than what I would end up with (I just want one in any shape or form).

If I do end up making a set myself, I'll be sure to post pictures and my experience in the process.

[bisl]

Is there any way to get a set of just the PCBs right now?

In short, no.

In more detail, the PCB design is the only thing not already available on ergodox.org--dox may or may not be working on it still. So as for the "right now" part, not really. Once it's finalized and published though, we can begin group buys; however, if memory serves I think the group buy was going to be for the full package minus switches and caps since everyone's going to want something different in those areas. There was some mention of buying blank 1.5x caps from SP since ergodox has more of them than the average bear, but that's the extent of it I believe.

For your purposes though, you could probably get a one-off order of the PCB although it might be more expensive; I guess if it doesn't complicate things too much for the GB organizers you could probably try to get in for PCB-only.

[AloisiusFauxly]

From the last posts from dox I read here and on GH, he considered the PCB done except for one jumper wire if you wanted to connect a usb cable directly to the Teensy instead of to an on-board usb port. And I saw someone post a shrink-wrapped batch of PCBs.

Yeah, one-offs are more expensive, so I'd rather not have to get them printed up by my lonesome.

[bisl]

I saw someone post a shrink-wrapped batch of PCBs

You're probably talking about bpiphany's photos from a while back--I believe these were for the prototype boards that were for the guys doing the real work, along with some testers. You could be right; the design may not change again, but speaking practically the schematics aren't published to the ergodox site so the GB can't begin. I would assume that dox and bpiphany have a reason for this, or they would have posted them.

dox/bpiphany: Is this accurate? Are you ok with releasing the PCB design so we can organize an order with pcbwing, or are you planning on making some finalization changes?

[AloisiusFauxly]

Those must have been the ones.

Out of the four sources of components in the GB (PCBs, case, Teensy, and various IC/eletronics), the PCBs are the only thing that I can't make or buy in a cost/time effective manner on my own, and since we don't have a layout, I can't even make them myself were I inclined.

I've done nothing for this project, and I know I'm entitled to the same, but the keyboard looks great and I want it under my hands as soon as possible.

[Icarium]

This thread has gotten too long for me to check but I believe the PCBs are unavailable on purpose so everybody will buy them together and make them cheaper.

[dirge]

Yes I think it was always said a case must come with this. Litsters case looks great. Just need to know volume prices

[AloisiusFauxly]

Well I hope that's not the... *puts sunglasses on* case here. *YEEEEEEAHAHHHHHHH*

Seriously though, I do hope I can just get the PCBs. Looks like there are between 5-10 people interested in just PCBs (depending on case price). I've been looking for a project to use a laser cutter/3D printer and this seems like it would be fun and cost effective.

[AloisiusFauxly]

I could see it being a problem if everything was planned around certain unit breaks. For example, if they do a run and get parts for 100 units, selling 10 PCBs would render the other parts for those 10 kits useless.

I assume that it won't be a problem to tack on an extra 10 PCBs to the order, but I just want to make sure that gets done instead of being in a situation where there are 100 cases to go with 100 PCBs.

[ic07]

I was under the impression that PCBs, cases, and components would be separate group buys. But I'd have to read back quite a bit to be able to reference where I got that impression. Hope it wasn't partly wishful thinking .

[JesuswasaZombie]

Unfortunately AF, that sentiment has been quite prevalent. We (Hashbaz, Sth, Quarzac, Haata and I met them) asked about that and because of the heavily discounted pricing they do they cannot publicly advertise pricing. You have to be part of the club, so to speak...

[AloisiusFauxly]

Well that's an unfortunate design decision to meet those goals. Instead of having prices replaced with a call to action to get me to sign up, I'm left thinking that their site is broken because I can't even click on the modal mask to dismiss it (a common behaviour of modals on the web).

[AloisiusFauxly]

What if we did a GB of just PCBs, then when the case is done, the other buys (full kit, case-less). That way, most people would be inclined to wait for the proper buy, and those people who want to get moving on it can do so.

The PCBs will be around $50 in numbers - a smaller run of 10-20 PCBs (enough to make 5-10 ErgoDox) would probably be more in the, what, $80-100 range?

PJRC has no price break listed for the Teensy (although I emailed them asking about breaks at 50 and 100) and shipping is $3.75.

The difference at Digikey for all the electronic parts but the cables is $12.50 @ 1qty, and $5.20 @ 100qty. Including combined shipping savings, it's probably only going to be a $50-70 difference between group and single/small run for all the parts. Getting it done earlier is worth that premium for me, as who knows when the case will be finalized.

For what it's worth, if you run IE8 or IE9

I will not stoop that low! I had to deal with IE8's DOM/javascript shenanigans earlier today for work, and I'm not touching that piece of crap again until I absolutely have to. At least I'm complaining about IE8 and not IE6. *shudder*

[fossala]

What if we did a GB of just PCBs, then when the case is done, the other buys (full kit, case-less). That way, most people would be inclined to wait for the proper buy, and those people who want to get moving on it can do so.

The PCBs will be around $50 in numbers - a smaller run of 10-20 PCBs (enough to make 5-10 ErgoDox) would probably be more in the, what, $80-100 range?

PJRC has no price break listed for the Teensy (although I emailed them asking about breaks at 50 and 100) and shipping is $3.75.

The difference at Digikey for all the electronic parts but the cables is $12.50 @ 1qty, and $5.20 @ 100qty. Including combined shipping savings, it's probably only going to be a $50-70 difference between group and single/small run for all the parts. Getting it done earlier is worth that premium for me, as who knows when the case will be finalized.

For what it's worth, if you run IE8 or IE9

I will not stoop that low! I had to deal with IE8's DOM/javascript shenanigans earlier today for work, and I'm not touching that piece of crap again until I absolutely have to. At least I'm complaining about IE8 and not IE6. *shudder*

I know you are getting inpatient but it will come eventually. Just let the guys do their work.

[Jim66]

Are you still in for one fossala? Now that you've fallen out with Cherry etc...

[fossala]

Yeah, just because it is awesome. I have a cherry keyboard coming, but that's just to play with the HID Liberation Device I got the other day.

You getting one now you have fallen out with mechanical keyboards ?

[Jim66]

Yeah, for the same reason; it's awesome.

I don't know what my current mech keyboard status is, I think I'm still all confused.

I guess you could say I'm dome-curious. I'm sure it's only a phase and it'll pass.