Intro Alps Board

User avatar
reverkiller

07 Nov 2012, 17:54

Hey,

I'm relatively new to the Mechanical Keyboard scene (I've had a Das Professional since May of last year), and I'm interested in picking up a board with a different brand of switch (besides Cherry MX). I think Alps is the logical next step, but have no idea where to start. I saw the Siig Minitouch, and have sorta fallen in love with it, but I don't know if there are better options out there. Anybody have any idea what could be a good intro alps board?

Thanks :)

User avatar
Ascaii
The Beard

07 Nov 2012, 18:14

the minitouch is a decent start, or a focus fk-200x. I think there was someone selling a siig for 20$ over at GH, you should check the classifieds.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

08 Nov 2012, 00:02

Alps: where even angels fear to tread. But then, if I said I was devilish, that wouldn't be right either. Hmm.

TL;DR: buy a buckling spring board and run away!!

It's complicated. The good MiniTouch isn't Alps, it's Monterey. The other variants are XM simplified (allegedly; would be a different Alps clone if it was sold before 1997) and rubber dome.

The Focus FK-x001 series used several switches, including blue Alps CM (the One True Alps Switch), white Alps CM (successor to blue), and Type III Simplified, suspected to be Strong Man. You'd have to double-check this, but IIRC the Windows key models are Type III (no idea whether they're any good), and at least some of the Windows-key-less ones are proper blue Alps from the 80s. If you can get one of the blue Alps originals, you'll enjoy it – blue Alps sound and feel superb, very deep and resonant, and exceptionally tactile (if you're used to blues you'll be in for a real surprise): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDMurngkHdg ; I can't vouch for white Alps having never used them, but you should be OK with them. It's the simplified switches you have to watch out for.

All Dell AT101, AT101W (104-key), AT102 and AT102W (105-key) are Alps CM, tactile. Rubber dome versions exist (there's an extra 'R' in the model number), but they're rare. The W series use black Alps, a so-so switch. The older boards used pink/salmon Alps. Cheap and commonplace boards, so-so feel, and not clicky, but a good solid sound nonetheless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrMMLL9uuH4

HOWEVER:

None of the above are sold today. Alps Electric stopped making switches years ago. Fuhua took over making the inferior simplified version, but they ceased production early this year. Xiang Min still make switches, but they're neither popular nor common: the only boards I know with them right now are Ducky 1000-series, and the boards are infamous for shocking quality control.

There is no such thing as an "intro" board, as only one company is left making Alps-style switches of any value, and that's Matias, and you'll have to pay new price as their Matias Quiet Switch boards are brand new as of last month, and they've only just introduced Matias Click Switches into the Tactile Pro to replace the extinct Fuhua/Fukka switch.

So far there's no verdict on how the new Matias switches compare to reputable vintage switches (Alps CM cream and blue), and unless Matias have truly replicated the feel of these, then buying second-hand boards will mean that you're tied to second-hand products from the 80s and soldering good switches into better keyboards forevermore.

Compared to the resilience of Cherry, Alps is a complete disaster. Matias switches are not on sale yet, so no third-party keyboards are being sold with them – they can barely make switches fast enough to meet the demand of their new keyboards! However, over time we should see the Matias switch series become the de facto Alps switch across the world, unless Xiang Min or APC improve their ergonomics significantly, which I doubt. There isn't anyone else selling Alps-style switches now. Strong Man went out of business around four years ago.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

08 Nov 2012, 00:05

^ Exclusive photo of above conversation.

Image

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

08 Nov 2012, 00:13

I got me some nice ones today:

Image

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

08 Nov 2012, 00:14

webwit wrote:^ Exclusive photo of above conversation.
I'm nowhere near that cool …

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

08 Nov 2012, 00:16

webwit wrote:I got me some nice ones today:
Wow. Didn't actually think anyone made metal switch shells ... Switches any good?

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

08 Nov 2012, 00:19

They are like this:
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... -t603.html

Except I got a T3100, seems to be the first version. Nice double shot keycaps too, I'll post some pictures later.

I don't like them as much as sixty did, but he's a linear switch fan.

User avatar
reverkiller

08 Nov 2012, 03:48

Alps appears to be a complex beast, and I remember posts not too long ago dealing with identifying the different kinds of switches based on tabs on the switches themselves. Thanks for taking so much time writing that out - it really helps me understand the situation.

Will any boards with the Matias switch be built? It is my understanding that Alps switches tend to be cheaper than Cherry switches. Is that an artifact of their age and generally inconsistent quality?

Now back to my question at hand - If you were to pick one reasonably priced board with either Alps or Alp clones (if thats what Monterey's are), what board would you pick and why? I know there are almost a million options (from what I've seen, every company that made computers made boards with alps switches). If this is too large of a question, feel free to shut me down.

One of the big reasons I was interested in the Siig was becasue of its layout. Are there any other (non Cherry) boards with layouts that would be sorta similar?

Again, thank you for giving me a that information! I found it to be really helpful!

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

08 Nov 2012, 07:40

webwit wrote:I got me some nice ones today:

Image
Same switches here:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t1318.html

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

09 Nov 2012, 00:45

reverkiller wrote:Now back to my question at hand - If you were to pick one reasonably priced board with either Alps or Alp clones (if thats what Monterey's are), what board would you pick and why?
I am mostly interested in products that I can easily replace when they break (like the guy who trod on his Cherry and snapped the PCB ;-) and recommend to others all over the world. This is why I don't make much effort to obtain vintage boards: I can't get them with Windows keys, anything resembling a sane layout, USB, and there's no guarantee of finding another one.

The only switch of any real interest now is the Matias switch, as it's in production, designed with a lot of love and attention, and likely to only grow in popularity. At the moment that means buying a Matias Quiet Pro or Tactile Pro, at US$149 / £118. Since these switches are pin-compatible with Alps, they can be retrofitted to any existing Alps board, and there are lots of people desperate to get hold of them once they go on sale, so I'm hoping that we'll see custom boards with them in even if Diatec don't reintroduce the Filco Zero with these switches (and Diatec are very much aware of the new switch).

If you want a vintage board, anything with blue Alps CM, e.g. the original Focus FK-2001. Even here you have to be careful: do NOT get the Windows keys version, as the switches are blue, but clones (and they may be nice clones but I don't recall ever seeing them vouched for or described in terms of feel). Colour is not a reliable guide. Blue has been used by Alps (Alps CM), Strong Man (?), and APC, but to my knowledge, not by Xiang Min, who only use cream and green for sliders.

Old Alps CM linear (green) is reported to be very nice if linear is your thing, and my brief experience with vintage tactile Alps was very positive. Black Alps in the Dell AT102W by comparison really sucks compared to the feel of blues.

There's no use recommending a specific board, as blue Alps is rare and you just have to take whatever turns up, regardless of how terrible the layout is, ditto for green (linear). If you want a good layout, move the switches into a standard layout board (Dell AT101(W)/102(W)/SGI Granite and Filco Zero for example – there aren't that many modern Alps/Alps clone boards). If you're going for 104/105 key you'd need to select a few keys to leave as the original switch, e.g. the three lock keys.

maxrunner

09 Nov 2012, 13:48

Hi Daniel, so Matias switch is in production now? nice, need to check it out then. How do they feel, do they have that butter like feel when you press them? i got a focus 555 from Fossala and it seems to be Blues CM....they feel buttery when you press them.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

09 Nov 2012, 21:49

Don't have mine yet — not due until 30th January in Europe :( I'm surprised that we're not seeing lots of people writing up their experiences, although I see that more YouTube videos are appearing now.

I just noticed something though — the Fukka switches in the Tactile Pro 3 have a double bump. After the tactile bump there's another one of varying strength and position, perhaps as though the tactile leaf doesn't always align with the actuating leaf. Maybe that explains why they're not as tactile as blue Alps: the tactile point isn't correctly defined.

maxrunner

10 Nov 2012, 00:23

Seems only the Quiet Pro will have a pc version. I assume the Tactile Pro will be the one to match Alps clicky?

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

11 Nov 2012, 02:37

Tactile Pro is the clicky one. A PC version of the Tactile Pro is quite likely.

nullstring

11 Nov 2012, 07:51

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Tactile Pro is the clicky one. A PC version of the Tactile Pro is quite likely.
Daniel,

Do you happen to know who manufactured the Filco Zero keyboards for Diatec?

rodtang

11 Nov 2012, 12:33

nullstring wrote: Do you happen to know who manufactured the Filco Zero keyboards for Diatec?
They made the keyboards themselves, that is what Diatec does, but they got the switches from Forward Electronics which have now stopped making the switch.

The Wiki is a great place to learn these things, at least some of the time.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

11 Nov 2012, 13:32

rodtang wrote:
nullstring wrote: Do you happen to know who manufactured the Filco Zero keyboards for Diatec?
They made the keyboards themselves, that is what Diatec does, but they got the switches from Forward Electronics which have now stopped making the switch.
The stylish, compact, stepped-case Filco-branded Alps keyboards (models FKB-nnn) were made by Strong Man until they went bankrupt some years ago. At this point, as I recall, manufacturing moved to Costar the same as the Majestouch range. Costar-made Filco Alps boards were branded "Zero" and got a 'Z' in the model number: FKBN-nnnZ/xxx, while Majestouch boards have an M in this position. The keyboards are almost identical from the outside, but the Zero didn't have the all-over coating over the keycaps.

Diatec don't make their own keyboards: they're manufactured in Taiwan by Costar.

[Edit: Keyboardlover's interview with Carl Matsu of Diatec — only confirms that Costar make the Majestouch, but as Costar make the Tactile Pro series, we know they can do Alps boards]

rodtang

11 Nov 2012, 13:53

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: Diatec don't make their own keyboards: they're manufactured in Taiwan by Costar.
My brain replaced Costar with Diatec for some reason, thanks for clearing that up and adding info I didn't know.

nullstring

11 Nov 2012, 19:58

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:
rodtang wrote:
nullstring wrote: Do you happen to know who manufactured the Filco Zero keyboards for Diatec?
They made the keyboards themselves, that is what Diatec does, but they got the switches from Forward Electronics which have now stopped making the switch.
The stylish, compact, stepped-case Filco-branded Alps keyboards (models FKB-nnn) were made by Strong Man until they went bankrupt some years ago. At this point, as I recall, manufacturing moved to Costar the same as the Majestouch range. Costar-made Filco Alps boards were branded "Zero" and got a 'Z' in the model number: FKBN-nnnZ/xxx, while Majestouch boards have an M in this position. The keyboards are almost identical from the outside, but the Zero didn't have the all-over coating over the keycaps.

Diatec don't make their own keyboards: they're manufactured in Taiwan by Costar.

[Edit: Keyboardlover's interview with Carl Matsu of Diatec — only confirms that Costar make the Majestouch, but as Costar make the Tactile Pro series, we know they can do Alps boards]
I was hoping you might say that.
It'd be interesting if rosewill started selling costar made products with matias switches.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

11 Dec 2012, 00:28

webwit wrote:I got me some nice ones today:

Image
Is there a name for these?

I presume this is what Alps sold before they moved onto the weird ⊥ slider switches that were not Z mount, before they settled on what we call Alps CM?

I just want to be positively sure that "Alps leaf spring" is a good name before we switch over to it.

In the meantime, I've chased Alps again to see if I can get an official product range name from them.

User avatar
Icarium

11 Dec 2012, 09:27

I wonder what Daniel did before he went into nagging keyboard manufacturers. Maybe he studied Librarianism.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

11 Dec 2012, 23:01

Nothing.

Maybe one day I'll get back into developing utility software. Long story.

Also, Chicony appear to have no contact form/e-mail addresses. I was going to pick their brains about Monterey switches as well as SIIG.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

11 Dec 2012, 23:07

I don't know if there's an official name for them. I've seen them more frequently on Korean and Chinese sites where there seems to be a small fan base - maybe one of our Asian members knows more.

domin8r

12 Dec 2012, 10:21

If you want some Alps goodness cheap you could try these:

http://global.pchome.com.tw/english/DCAH0X-A58945616
http://global.pchome.com.tw/english/DCAH0X-A59130655

The greens are clicky, I believe the blacks are linear. Do note that these are alps replicas. But great value for money.
Typing on the green one right now.. noisy fellow though ;)

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

12 Dec 2012, 22:35

Xiang Min don't sell black slider switches — they seem to randomly alternate between white and green. Ducky obviously did that to mess with my head. (Xiang Min confirmed that the 55 cN greens are a Ducky custom order.)

I've added a note to the XM page on the wiki: http://deskthority.net/wiki/XM#Availability ; I don't have a list of actual Ducky keyboard models though and the Ducky part of the wiki is languishing near death.

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