"LP Family" keyboard tenkeyless with no cursor keys either?

[cheater]

Hi guys,
I have been following this forum for some time now. It's a great resource. I was hoping someone could help me with the following question..


I am a big fan of the "lp family" key profile (see here: http://i.imgur.com/aw1CG.jpg ), which is half-height with the bottom row rounded off. I like it because it's high enough that it makes pressing ctrl with the palm easy, while being low enough to make for comfortable typing with the keyboard in my lap. I currently use a Logitech Media Keyboard K200:

http://kcn-computer.de/out/pictures/mas ... 1/k200.jpg

I really like it because it's cheap and really comfortable.

However, the numpad and cursor keys (so everything right of the return key) annoy me. Are there any keyboards with this key profile, but without that annoying bit? I have considered just sawing off that part, but finding a keyboard to buy would be much better.

It isn't a problem when I'm working at a desk - I use two keyboards (one for each hand) and they mostly stay put. However when I'm in my armchair the keyboard is so wide that I can't keep it centered in my lap. Additionally, that part weighs a lot and it's really annoying not to be able to balance it on one leg.

Please bear in mind I'm not looking for a super-expensive keyboard, so deals that go as high as $100 are definitely not something I can do.. This thing here cost ~$20 and can be bought any time, so if the key caps get too slick I just get a new one.

As a side-note: are there any keyboards with this key profile, that are as thin as this keyboard, with keyboard switches? This thing is naturally all domes.

Thanks!

[IvanIvanovich]

Maybe a G84-4100?

[cheater]

Hi Lysol,
thanks for your reply.

Interesting suggestion.

The G84-4100, as it is, is very cramped. I wouldn't be able to type on it. Especially the tiny control and shifting buttons.
I wonder, however, if new key caps could be obtained. For example, I could see it almost work out with the following mods:
- make the left Ctrl button double-wide (extend over the Fn button)
- make left Alt extend over the </> button
- make right Alt extend over the "win key"

However, those would annoy me:
- single-width tab would make it impossible to figure out if my pinky is over Tab or Q
- no tilde key to the left of 1
- no f11, f12. Function keys not grouped. esc not separate.
- no way to have a big right-ctrl button
- horizontal Return. The \ key is not between ' and Return.
- tiny backspace
- page up etc column not separate from Return etc
- generally cramped lower-right corner.

What I really do like about it is that the right thumb can do so much more.

That's a really close tip. I'll look at other compact keyboards from Cherry. Or perhaps you have some more tips?

[kbdfr]

What about a Tipro?
They have low profile keycaps, can be fitted with relegendable keycaps where necessary, and as every single key is freely (and easily) programmable, the layout is entirely at your choice.
They have Cherry MX black switches.


(Note that there are 16 single switches on each of the upper four rows, even if the picture shows some double keycaps and even a quadruple one).

More info here.

If you're interested, 7bit might still have some (and I still have one of his at my place).

[cheater]

Hi kbdfr!

Thanks for the tip. This keyboard looks really cool! My two questions are:
1. with a low-profile key cap, how tall is it from base to the top of the keycap?
2. how much does it weigh? I'm a bit concerned about how comfortable it would be for typing in the lap. Even this k200 is sometimes a tad bit too heavy.

It's really cool that this keyboard is so cheap too. I should try it out perhaps. Is 7bit located in Germany? I just moved down here.. I noticed that that ebay seller is in Germany, so it might be cheaper this way.

[kbdfr]

1. Total keycap height: 7mm. Overall keyboard height (at the highest point, i.e. rear part): 4 cm.
2. 1310 g

7bit is located in Berlin and bought several of these. Don't know for how much he wants to sell them.

Here is an original pic from the Tipro website:

[cheater]

Quick update.

Re-reading my original question in the topic gave me an idea. In fact, I only need the ctrl key to be possible to press with the palm. The rest of the keys are pressed with the thumb or the fingers.

I have a recent HP laptop with a chiclet keyboard. I only ever use it with an external keyboard, but I remember the first few weeks I was trying out its keyboard the typing comfort was much better than dome keyboards (either full or half height). The (I assume) scissor action keys are very comfortable to type with and I felt less strain in the fingers. The only problems were that the layout was a bit cramped, and that Control could not be pressed with the palm.

So I had this idea I tried it out today.. what if I glued a key cap to the ctrl key? I didn't really use any glue. I merely took out the ctrl key from the logi k200 and balanced it on the laptop's ctrl key. Works great! Later I used a stack of 1-cent coins to check what height is optimal.

This is the closest photograph to the keyboard that I have:
http://www.laptophug.com/wp-content/upl ... 25x479.jpg
except mine has the numpad and is iso.
I could of course change my linux keyboard layout to make the right-arrow a ctrl key, so that's fine.

The nice thing about this is that both alt keys are nicely thumbable.

I've never even considered a chiclet keyboard before, but now it made perfect sense. So I've spent the whole afternoon searching about. I've found the following keyboards:

Periboard 407: http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/9083 ... 5&ref=list
Periboard 804: http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/9178 ... 5&ref=list
Microsoft Wedge Mobile Keyboard: http://www.arlt.com/Hardware/Eingabeger ... board.html
Microsoft Bluetooth Mobile Keyboard 5000: http://www.arlt.com/Hardware/Eingabeger ... -5000.html
KeySonic KSK-3201 RF: http://www.arlt.com/Hardware/Eingabeger ... 01-RF.html

The MS wedge right alt is not thumbable and is wireless. Who knows if it'll work with a desktop. The Periboard 407 has the area around shift a bit cramped but I could learn to love it. The 804 is wireless, but I can learn to live with that. The 407 additionally has page up/down keys (the only cursor keys I ever use) in a column, and the enter key is thick enough that they're far enough not to get in the way. Here I'd change the down arrow to ctrl and stick a key cap on that and the left ctrl. The keysonic's right-shift area is unacceptably crowded but it has a trackball, which is a great idea. The MS 5000 looks somewhat interesting but I seem to remember the keys didn't have such a nice jumpy feeling when I tried it, although I might be remembering wrong - I'll have to try it out.

I think the perixx 407 is a clear winner. I'll have to pick one up. It's also one of the cheapest, coming down to only 12 euro new on ebay!

Does anyone know what switch type the Perixx Perixboard 407 might have?

[cheater]

1. Total keycap height: 7mm. Overall keyboard height (at the highest point, i.e. rear part): 4 cm.
2. 1310 g

7bit is located in Berlin and bought several of these. Don't know for how much he wants to sell them.

Here is an original pic from the Tipro website:

Thanks for the info. I'll mock up some tests to see if a keyboard like this is comfortable. Any idea how much between the bottom and keycap at the base, i.e. at the spacebar row?

Thanks

[kbdfr]

[…] I'll mock up some tests to see if a keyboard like this is comfortable. Any idea how much between the bottom and keycap at the base, i.e. at the spacebar row?

Thanks

About 2,5 cm.

By the way, if I understand right, you want the "palm action" keycaps to be higher than the rest.
On a Tipro keyboard, of course you can put any Cherry MX compatible keycap on any switch you want (the left one is the original Tipro keycap for that keyboard):

[cheater]

if I understand right, you want the "palm action" keycaps to be higher than the rest

Well, not really. The LP Family keys are a milimeter or two higher in the spacebar row, but my palm is at an angle to the key anyways, so that doesn't matter.
The chiclet style keys simply do not stand high enough over the laptop's surface to be pressed with the palm. I must admit I'm not sure if they would be OK on a stand-alone keyboard where those keys are at the very edge. I'll have to try and see. It might work out without sticking keycaps on but I doubt it.

[cheater]

Hi guys,
quick update.
I have visited a local discounter and tested a few keyboards. The rapoo looked good, and the keys could be operated with the palm, but the keys were those super-old flat laptop-style keys that clack, and don't sit tight (i.e. they wiggle to the sides), which always annoyed the hell out of me in old laptops. I have an experience of those breaking fairly quickly, too.

The ms wireless mobile keyboard 5000 looked cool too, however the curve made it a bit weird to use, plus the left alt wasn't really thumbable.

I also checked out the logitech k400r, which I took home. I'll be bringing it back, but only to replace it with the k400 which costs 30% less. (yay for 30 days happiness warranty!)

By changing the layout file I should be able to make the right-arrow a control key, up-arrow a shift key, and the right control a right-alt.

The k400r has the major caveat that it has those stupid windows 8 "function keys". That is, the keys to the right of esc are multimedia keys, and you have to press the FN key to access the function keys. This sucks, and can't even be modified in software with a layout file, because the keyboard doesn't send break messages on the first four media keys.

The two buttons to the left of the return key (iso layout here) are reduced width. I thought that'd be annoying (that's where my p and ; keys are) but it is not noticeable at all. The mangled right shift, alt, and ctrl area is very noticeable and i'll be addressing that with a new layout.

The k400 has normal function keys. If I can get the ctrl, shift, and alt keys in place on the k400r, I'll be getting the k400. I'll keep you posted.

What really got me interested is that the k400(r) have an integrated multitouch touchpad. You can do two-finger scrolling and gestures and other stuff. However sometimes it seems to be losing clicks (both on the pad and on the keys under it). The mouse button seems to be giving the tactile click without actually making the contact, so you have to push a bit harder than that to actually click the mouse. As an added touch there's also an lmb on the upper left corner above esc, and that seems to work fully correctly.

I thought that the unseparated function key row would be annoying, but I seem to be doing ok with that for some reason. By the way, pressing alt, ctrl, and shift turns the media keys back to function keys on the k400r.

BTW, first day switching from the logitech k250 to k400r, really bad wrist pains. I hope that means my wrists are simply adjusting to a less uncomfortable position, and not that the keyboard is bad. I've had the same issues when e.g. changing from an old nameless keyboard to the ms 4000 elite, so i'm hopeful. I'll try putting a pillow under my forearms.

[Ascaii]

have you checked out the 3800? There is a review in the appropriate section...Ive got a set of keys in the mail from one.

[cheater]

@ascaii: what's a 3800?

btw, minor annoyance with the touchpad. It might be that I'm using mate-desktop. The touchpad sensitivity cannot be adjusted at all it seems. Also, it'll take some learning not to hit the touchpad when typing.

[Ascaii]

http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t2256.html

Uniform profile cherry board made to apeeal to chiclet users

[cheater]

ah, right. I have indeed come across it. However, it has cursor keys and the numpad, so i disregarded it.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Ascaii]

ah, right. I have indeed come across it. However, it has cursor keys and the numpad, so i disregarded it.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

I know what you mean^^. I got the caps from someone over at gh, I will be using them on a more compact board as well.

[7bit]

Key caps and keybopard are different things!

It is like not buying a table because the wrong dishes are placed on it for decoration purposes.

Just wait for the Hyper keyboard and later buy key caps in my upcomming group buy.

[cheater]

@7bit: I'm afraid I don't know what you're refering to. "Key caps and keyboard are different things" - when have I said they're not? I'm not sure what you mean, that's all.

What is the Hyper keyboard? How much will that, plus a set of keycaps, cost?

[cheater]

Hi guys,
one more update. Apparently there's a bug in xorg somewhere which means I can't set the layout like I described above. There's more info here:
http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg/2012-D ... 55142.html

I'm trying to work out what's going on.

Cheers

[cheater]

I've been able to figure out how to remap all the keys the way I wanted to. There's info here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=12389845

You can download the xkb layout at:

https://bitbucket.org/cheater/us_split_logitech_k400

I'll try to turn in my k400r and obtain a k400 tomorrow. We'll see how that goes.

[cheater]

Update: my "quest for the perfect keyboard" continues in another thread:

"scissor switch board, tenkeyless + touchpad? + Mac kb qstn"
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/sci ... t4535.html

I decided not to get a k400, instead I'll keep the k400r and return it once I've got a Perixx Periboard 804.