scissor switch board, tenkeyless + touchpad? + Mac kb qstn

[cheater]

Hi guys,
I've recently posted a thread here looking for a new keyboard and got a lot of helpful and inspiring replies. It helped me find my perfect keyboard, the Logitech k400. Well.. nearly perfect.

Sadly, the k400 uses distortion domes, which sucks. The keys are OK, and they're still better than what I'm used to due to their shorter travel, but they have nothing on my laptop's scissors. The Logi website has a list which includes the keyboard as having scissor switches

Here's a site for the board: http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/w ... board-k400

I thought I'd come back, given the tremendous response to the previous topic. You guys rock!

So here's the question: is there something like the k400, but with scissor switches? I'm happy to pay around 50-70 euro for one (which is generous for something like this). It needs to have a short space bar, that is the left alt key is under X, and the right alt key is under the , key. Lower left and right corners can't be the Fn key (although it's fine if the keyboard has one next to the corner), must be available in ISO layout, the function keys must be usable without the Fn key. I can't imagine the touch pad not being multitouch, but it should be. Wireless is a big plus, but not strictly necessary.

Alternatively: a keyboard with scissor switches, same alt key positions, iso layout, and i'll just stick a touchpad over the numpad or cursor key area. That's good too, especially if I can get a thin one. The keyboard must be more compact (narrower) than the usual "full size" which simply does not fit ergonomically in the lap. This means either the numpad or the cursor key area are gone or compacted into a single column. I think 3M super-velcro will help loads here.

Third option: a keyboard with ONLY the alphanumeric section, no num pad or cursor keys. I get an aluminum plate and stick the keyboard and a touchpad on top of it, side by side. This could actually work out well I think. Still, I haven't been able to find any real contenders with scissor switches.

I wonder if I could use mac keyboards? They have them in ISO: http://www.musik-schmidt.de/gb-Apple-Wi ... board.html

However I'm not sure if the Fn key is remappable (to Control), and if the function keys can be used without the Fn key. Anyone got info on that? How are scissor switches? I want to use this only under Linux, so if Windows doesn't have the interoperability that's OK.

The keyboard doesn't actually need to have a num pad or cursor keys. I don't use them. My keyboard layout has them on altgr + hjkl for the arrows and yuio for the home/pgdn/pgup/end keys. Really comfortable and doesn't break your flow like moving the hand out to the cursor area does.

Looking forward to your tips guys!

[cheater]

Hi guys,
quick update: I've found out that Periboard 804 could work for the third option. Here's a link:
http://www.perixx.com/de/products/perixx-pro-4.html

The cherry kw 6000 seems to be exactly the same thing:
http://www.cherry.de/cid/new_products_C ... &WT.mc_id=

I wonder what the key in the top right, 2nd from right does? (it's right next to the del key)

Really interesting japanese version of the perixx 706 plus. even more thumb keys! I wonder if they make the 804 in japanese, and whether the 706 uses the same scissor switches. I'll call them tomorrow. I called them to ask about the 804 today already and the person on the other end of the line was very helpful. Note the description says US version, but the photos show a japanese version. http://www.amazon.de/Perixx-PERIBOARD-7 ... 6&sr=1-165

Seriously considering one of those two Samsung keyboards, which are marketed as tv remotes:

Samsung VG-KBD 1000: http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/tv-a ... KBD1000/XS
Samsung VG-KBD 1500: http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs-acc ... KBD1500/ZA

They have a very comfortable thumb area and an integrated touch pad. A bit on the pricy side, but if it does everything I need, it's still cheaper than a keyboard and a touchpad separately. Plus, it's available from Saturn, so I could use their 30 day satisfaction guarantee again. They seem to be using scissors (I assume so because the keyboard is thin and uses chiclet style keys). The difference seems to be that the 1500 has three buttons in the upper right for selecting which tv/dvd/whatever the (infrared?) remote is talking to, and a switch on the back near the battery compartment that I've seen in a video but which wasn't identified. Both seem very unimportant. The keyboard has a halfways-iso layout: there's the vertical enter (it can be had with horiz enter as well), but there's no key between left shift and z.

Another serious contender, although a bit pricy: Fujitsu LX360: http://www.amazon.de/Fujitsu-LX360-Blue ... 5&sr=1-266

Another fitting keyboard, although a bit expensive and only available in white (I want black): Hama Bluetooth Keyboard: http://www.amazon.de/Hama-Bluetooth-Tas ... 7&sr=1-609

This thing seems to have a trackpad that slides out from underneath! I wonder about the practicality and sturdiness of that, though:
Motorola Wireless Keyboard With Trackpad: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6823755003

This looks like it could work well except the fn key kills it: Trust Thinity Wireless Entertainment Keyboard: http://www.trust.com/products/product.a ... rtnr=16816

ditto: Trust Tacto Wireless Entertainment Keyboard with Touchpad: http://www.trust.com/products/product.a ... rtnr=18484

I wonder if those two could be modded to have ctrl on the fn key. Shouldn't be a huge mod, right? Has anyone ever modded a scissor keyboard?

This could probably work as well, but not available in Germany:
http://www.amazon.com/HP-XB387AA-ABA-Wi ... B0044DPB4O


----------------------

As far as touchpads go, there are two from Logitech (one is rechargable, the other has batteries but has physical keys which i prefer) and the apple touchpad (which seemed OK the last time i used it, maybe the tilt killed it for me back then)

----------------------

Less serious keyboards:

Honorable mention: acer iconia tab w500/w501 docking station. Only useful for the tablet (or is it? maybe it talks to the tablet via bluetooth anyways), but has a trackpoint: http://store.acer.com/store/aceremea/de ... 4813909119

Honorary mention even though it misses several important aspects (function keys, fn key, etc): the Targus iPad keyboard: http://www.targus.com/de/product_detail ... ku=AKB32DE

This could work if it weren't some crazy android keyboard: the Motorola Android Keyboard: http://nexus10keyboard.com/motorola-android-keyboard/

This must be the smallest tab key ever: the Ednet Bluetooth Mini Keyboard: http://www.hartware.de/press_14580.html

[cheater]

One advantage of the Perixx 804/Cherry KW 6000 is that they use integrated batteries and are rechargable. This means they're yet thinner (= less angle to hurt the wrists). This could go well together with the Logitech TW 650 which is also rechargeable and just as thin. Stick them both on an aluminum board and you're done. However, the TW 650 touchpad - even though it's awesome and has a glass surface - is just too expensive at nearly 80 euro. The Logitech Wireless Touchpad is a full 40 euro cheaper, but has a battery, and thus wouldn't work just as well with the perixx board. I will therefore try the samsungs first.

My top pick would be the logitech tw 650 plus a perixx 804 JP (for additional thumb keys). Probably very expensive, not exactly ready to spend that much. What I get is a keyboard with thumb keys, certainly good key switches (probably cherry, I'll try to find out tomorrow) and a touchpad which is sure to be very good. All this in a very flat package. Compare this with the samsung, which is simple to buy and start using and much cheaper (half the cost?)

I'll do an update once I find out something more.

Edit 1/2: the 650 + 804 (with a normal 804) would only be maybe 10 euro more, plus metal plate (not sure where I'd get one yet). I'll try and find out if a jp 804 can be had and if it costs more. I'm thinking that I go through keyboards fairly quickly, while the pointing devices seem to last forever. I like my keyboards to be nice and coarse. If the keyboard portion costs 90 euro that's prohibitive, if it costs 25 euro that's much better (you can spend more at a fast food joint). Additionally if I figure out some other keyboard, I can start using that instead, and keep the touchpad. So I think having a separate touchpad will pay off quite well.

Boy, I'm probably boring everyone with this tedium already

[cheater]

Quick update: decided to get a Perixx Periboard 804 from Conrad. It costs 10 euro more (a whopping 1/3 increase in price), but you don't need to order anything online from shoddy shops, no need to bother with shipment tracking, etc. It shows up at their shop and you can pick it up after you get a phonecall. The convenience is definitely worth it. It'll be here in 8 to 10 working days.

Having looked at online reviews of the Cherry KW 6000, it is exactly the same as the Perixx Periboard 804 (which is just a rebrand of the Cherry or the other way around). This means there's no reason to bother the Perixx guys with questions, e.g. it's obvious there won't be a Japanese version, because it's not up to them anyways.

I wonder what switches Cherry scissor keyboards use? I don't think Cherry make their own, do they?

[cheater]

To answer my own question: the Cherry KW 6000 uses the "SX" switch technology, which is a scissor mechanism on top of a distortion dome. SX is mentioned in the tech specs pdf for the 6000, as well as on the keyboard itself.

The SX tech is explained here, there are some low-res photos too: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keybo ... atalog.pdf

[kbdfr]

Your segment of the keyboard scene is definitely not mine
but I do appreciate the fact you are contributing information and making efforts to inform yourself
and not just taking the easy way of asking.

Hope you will be satisfied with whatever you end up using

[cheater]

Thanks! I'll post some more info when I get things going. I just found someone was asking a similar question on the Geekhack forum recently:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36278.0

BTW, regarding the k400 which I'm testing right now: the touchpad sort of sucks. The pinch zoom barely works at all - it's not a matter of getting used to it, it just randomly doesn't figure out I'm doing a pinch, and when it does it's delayed. The mouse keys suck too, they make the click without actually making contact - that's a no-no. You have to press harder after the click happens to actually get the mouse to click. Sometimes the right click "double tap" doesn't work either.

Based on this experience I'm sort of reluctant to get another keyboard with an integrated touchpad. I think a separate touchpad is the best way to go.

[bjarven]

How about a mac wireless, a mac wireless touchpad and one of these? http://magicconnector.com/wp-content/up ... G_4077.jpg or something similar, this was the first one google gave me.

It's probably pretty expensive though for all three parts. I haven't tried any of them, used a "wired" apple chicklet keyboard for a few months but the keys felt horrible to me. It was pretty though... The wireless touchpad seems very nice, I'm thinking about getting one and put in on top of my kinesis.

[cheater]

Right, I know of those, and considered them for a brief moment, however I've run into quite a few issues:

1. the touchpad is not flat enough. it's annoying to use tilted up like that, and the last time I tried (although that was on a desk and not in my lap) it gave me gorilla hand.

2. The dreaded fn key in the lower left corner. Completely kills the keyboard.

3. This combo costs about as much as the higher-quality keyboard and touchpad combo i pieced together. Plus they're white and powdered-silver, and I don't like that because it looks dirty real quick.

4. I don't really like supporting apple

5. I'm kinda concerned about the compatibility of apple keyboards with more advanced usage in GNU/Linux.

6. Those connectors actually aren't that sturdy. They sure keep the two pieces together, but it's a risky contraption, and e.g. you can't rest your palm on the touchpad. It's so that they don't keep moving apart when you shove your keyboard around on your desk, it's not meant for any realistic support. So I'd have to glue an alu plate under it anyways.

7. And once i've done that, the battery compartment can't be opened anymore, which sucks. The logi and cherry/perrix get charged via micro usb.

8. The cherry has a bigger button in the lower right corner (= easier to hit with your palm). Plus I think the "eject" button is not usable as a real delete key.

9. The keyboard (which is what I'll be changing every 3 months or so) is difficult to get in ISO, and costs a lot more than the perixx. The perixx can be had for as little as 30 euro shipped, the mac one in iso costs about 55.

10. Minor thing: the logi touchpad has MUCH higher quality surface (it's actually glass, which is nice), plus it apparently has a tactile click (although I haven't tried that out in person yet). Plus, it's a much newer touch technology, so I bet it reacts faster.

11. One thing I didn't like about the mac touchpad was the rough edges. This really annoyed me and I'm not sure if I'd be able to use it for an extended period of time. The logi has nice rounded edges.

Thanks for the tip anyways, bjarven. If it weren't for my personal preferences and minor nitpicks and the very specific kind of use that I subject my input devices to, that would definitely be a great idea.

[kbdfr]

[…] minor nitpicks […]

[cheater]

OK big nitpicks

[bjarven]

Valid points! But I'm curious about this one;

(which is what I'll be changing every 3 months or so)

Do you get a new keyboard every three months?! I guess scissor-switches wear out faster but that fast?

[cheater]

I don't like when keyboards get all slimy or slick. Just buy a new one, and always have something nice to touch.

You wouldn't be using the same pair of socks for a year.

[fossala]

I don't like when keyboards get all slimy or slick. Just buy a new one, and always have something nice to touch.

You wouldn't be using the same pair of socks for a year.

I have year old socks. Mine don't go into the bin until they get holes in. I am typing on a keyboard from '87 though.

[cheater]

You do wash 'em, don't you. Sadly not just as possible with keyboards, except that one logitech.

[rodtang]

You do wash 'em, don't you. Sadly not just as possible with keyboards, except that one logitech.

Yes it is... Take them apart and wash them. Or just wash them and let them dry a few days.

[cheater]

meh, doesn't help when they get slick. besides it's a lot of work.. and have you ever taken apart a scissor board? more trouble than it's worth i'd guess..

[cheater]

By the way - I looked at the measurements for the touchpad and the keyboard. Apparently the touchpad is about 2 cm taller than the keyboard, so there's going to be a strip of metal, 2cm high, behind the keyboard (I want the front edges of the keyboard and touchpad to line up). Any ideas what could be put there?

[cheater]

One of my first ideas was to mimick the logitech k400 keyboard and put a mouse button (by taking apart some cheap wireless mouse) in the upper left corner. Maybe even a trackpoint - wonder if that could be done? I couldn't find a wireless trackpoint anywhere, though. Another option: add a mouse scroll wheel.

[cheater]

Now that I'm thinking: maybe I could rip apart a second wireless scissor keyboard, and make a strip of extra thumb keys at the bottom? I wonder if that's been done before? this would definitely own! I wonder how much of the keyboard would need to stay intact so that I could do this. I guess I'd need to be able to run some flat ribbon from those extra buttons to the "host" keyboard, and hook that up somehow.

[cheater]

Ooohh, this is a very dangerous idea. I can't stop thinking about it now. I just might have to do it. Let me try and call Cherry tomorrow and see if I can get any infos. What I guess I would need:

1. where is the logic chip? is it in the bezel?
2. how does the scanning work - can I hook up to the existing matrix?
3. is the switch matrix solderable?
4. can the keyboard be taken apart so as to separate the keyboard mechanism from its enclosure?

[rodtang]

1. where is the logic chip? is it in the bezel?
2. how does the scanning work - can I hook up to the existing matrix?
3. is the switch matrix solderable?
4. can the keyboard be taken apart so as to separate the keyboard mechanism from its enclosure?

2. Unless it is the same matrix (pointless, yeah) or one with just fewer switched it wouldn't work.
3. Not directly, no. It is a sheet of plastic...
4 . Umm, kinda.

Everything you're trying to do would be a lot easier if if you made your own PCB and used some proper switches on that PCB...

[cheater]

Everything you're trying to do would be a lot easier if if you made your own PCB and used some proper switches on that PCB...

That would make the keyboard too high for my liking. I can make my own PCB.

Plus, I like the feel of scissor switches. The short travel is really good for me.

I'm thinking of using the same, or a similar, keyboard as the donor of the "bottom strip".

I've just found this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRzL8JYrwzQ

This is a failed teardown of the mac wired keyboard. If the Cherry KW 6000 / Perixx Periboard 604 is the same inside, I might find it fairly difficult to modify anything.

At the very least I'd want to hook up to the full keyboard's battery..

[cheater]

Here's a good apple keyboard teardown: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+Wi ... own/5239/1

edit: another one: http://www.brunerd.com/blog/2009/08/25/ ... sassembly/

[abhibeckert]

My problem with scissor switches (at least from Apple) is they feel great when they're new but after a year or so of daily use no-longer feel good. Having to buy a new one every so often is why I eventually moved away from them... it seems like if you're going to build your own keyboard that will be even more of an issue.

I have pulled Apple keyboards apart a few times. The keys scissors are attached to a thin metal sheet (almost paper thin) which is glued onto the white plastic bottom on one side (which provides some stiffness) and then the aluminium grid is glued and spot welded to the other side of the paper thin metal sheet (which provides even more stiffness).

The glue is not very strong, once you get a screwdriver under and pry a bit you can peel the rest off with your bare hands. It feels like if you stuck them back together immediately the glue would still stick but I've never tried. The spotwelds also snap off easily by hand, they're really tiny.

I like to use the aluminium grid for various DIY projects.

[cheater]

Ahh, that explains it quite well. I bet the Cherry build is exactly the same (why reinvent the wheel).

[cheater]

Just got notified - the thing's here to be picked up, so I'm probably going to do it tomorrow. 3 working days.. much less than the 8-10 they quote.

[cheater]

Hi guys,
quick update: I got the Perixx Periboard 804 and.. I'm not perfectly happy with it. It's pretty good, but not as good as my laptop's keyboard. The action, while still being fairly good, is a bit more mushy than the laptop's. The laptop switches are really snappy.

Here's a thread where I'll be trying to figure out what keyboard is being used by my laptop:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/how ... t4615.html

"How to identify the switch type used by my laptops keyboard?"