AEII Keycaps on Matias Tactile Pro: Should I try it?

[LambdaCore]

I've read the AEII keycaps are PBT, some of the few PBT keycaps you can get for alps switches, would this improve sound enough to be worth while?

[Muirium]

They’re nice caps. Don’t know if they’ll do much for a Matias keyboard. Perhaps you could put them on an AEK.

[LambdaCore]

I thought about getting the AEIIK as they're pretty readily available and ADB converters aren't so expensive, but I've heard some iffy things about the dampened cream switches albeit great things about orange switches

[Muirium]

Well worth trying for yourself. I like creams, and I’m not alone. Being Alps, it’s also pure luck which experience you get. The AEK II is a fairly classy board, well designed if not as solid as most of my heavier stuff. Its caps have character for sure.

[LambdaCore]

Fair enough, worth keeping an eye out for cheap stock anyways

[Palatino]

I love dampened cream switches. Even on my middling condition AEK II, they feel and sound great. Orange alps are also very nice: really pleasant tactility and sound. I’d keep an eye out for both (disclaimer: I’ll be selling at least one orange alps board soon!)

I also have a Matias Tactile Pro so if you’d like I can stick some AEKii caps on it and let you know what it’s like.

[Muirium]

We’re such enablers!

I’ve got a couple of near mint ones. (Mostly my own light use.) One in box, one with its original rather bland ABS keyboard cover. Both were dirt cheap. No complaints.

Old Mac User legend insists AEK IIs (not even the original) are, lo!, the Greatest Keyboard Ever Made. Ha! Nope. But they are fairly good. And there are so many of them out there in a reasonable state that every keyboard enthusiast should have one, somewhere.

[timw4mail]

I have AEK II caps on my Matias Tactile Pro 4. The downside is that the top row, numpad 0 and enter don't fit, and the left control is smaller on the AEK II. (The AEK II has rotated switches on the top row for some reason, and the stabilizers are mounted on opposite sides of the keys for the two big numpad switches)

On the plus side, I feel like the board is easier to type on with the AEK II caps compared to the original Mattias ones.

Just be careful removing the caps from the Matias. I had to replace a switch that decided to come with one of the caps.

[fohat]

The downside is that the top row, numpad 0 and enter don't fit, and the left control is smaller on the AEK II. (The AEK II has rotated switches on the top row for some reason, and the stabilizers are mounted on opposite sides of the keys for the two big numpad switches)

This is a very typical Apple middle finger.

They made the best Alps keys ever and put them in a goofball configuration that can't be realistically used anywhere else.

[Muirium]

Yup. Nineties Apple totally had it in for present day Matias.

Alternatively: Matias could have copied them for compatibility’s sake. All of their marketing compares their boards to beige era Apple’s. Not like you’ve modern day MX alternatives to bear in mind on an Alps mount switch.

[Palatino]

Found where my Matias was hiding. I’d forgotten I’d already dressed it up in some caps salvaged from another board, a cable-cut white Alps something-or-other. Quite a nice result, I think, the four shades. There’s probably a fancy name for it: colour some keycaps like this, call it Butterscotch Cream, and sell for $200

[Muirium]

Found where my Matias was hiding.

Far away from the soldering iron? Like every pet who's ever been to the vet!

Interesting colourway. I've just been playing keyset unsanctioned dressup with a certain board of mine, too. Pics when there's light to see it.

[LambdaCore]

Found where my Matias was hiding. I’d forgotten I’d already dressed it up in some caps salvaged from another board, a cable-cut white Alps something-or-other. Quite a nice result, I think, the four shades. There’s probably a fancy name for it: colour some keycaps like this, call it Butterscotch Cream, and sell for $200

Looks really nice! Honestly I think I might just save up for the AEII itself since most keycap sets for it come around the same price as some boards, albeit yellowed boards so the switches might feel a bit ehh... Still, that's a whole keyboard over just some caps, and it'd be fun to try it out anyways since I'd love to try some of the other alps switches, as currently I've only used complicated white alps, T1 clones and Matias's. I also kind of want to try quiet clicks, especially since I'll soon have a job that would greatly benefit from that, however I've heard bad things about chattering so I might want to go for dampened cream alps instead even if I've heard they don't feel quite as nice... For what it's worth, I don't think the chattering is a huge issue for the clicky matias switches as mine has seen some extensive use and is still perfectly fine.

[Muirium]

Aye, chattering is an unintended state of degradation, not operation as designed. A bug, not a feature! Hopefully all recent Matias switches are reliable now. I mean, everyone has problems with quality control in China. The trouble was when Matias shipped so many keyboards, unchecked, and didn't do a recall when they epic failed. Really soured their reputation.

Pics when there's light to see it.

As promised. Not necessarily a smart colourway, but as I've both HHKB keysets, this was just asking to happen…

[hellothere]

I thought about getting the AEIIK as they're pretty readily available and ADB converters aren't so expensive, but I've heard some iffy things about the dampened cream switches albeit great things about orange switches

[pedant] Damped. If your switches are dampened, they're wet. [/pedant]

Damped cream Alps can be excellent. AEK IIs are also pretty inexpensive and there's a large supply.

Check the Wiki. It's got a guide on how to identify which switch is available on which keyboard. Oranges can be found on the original AEK and some of the original Apple Standard Keyboard, but not on the AEK II -- unless you install them yourself, which I have done before.

My opinion on PBT vs ABS is ... you're probably not going to really notice the sound difference just in switching caps. Maybe a bit.

Note that the function key row on the AEK and AEK II uses comically tall key stems and that they're rotated 90 degrees.

Oh. Channeling Mu. If you want quiet, go out and get an HHKB or other Topre.

[LambdaCore]

I thought about getting the AEIIK as they're pretty readily available and ADB converters aren't so expensive, but I've heard some iffy things about the dampened cream switches albeit great things about orange switches

[pedant] Damped. If your switches are dampened, they're wet. [/pedant]

Damped cream Alps can be excellent. AEK IIs are also pretty inexpensive and there's a large supply.

Check the Wiki. It's got a guide on how to identify which switch is available on which keyboard. Oranges can be found on the original AEK and some of the original Apple Standard Keyboard, but not on the AEK II -- unless you install them yourself, which I have done before.

My opinion on PBT vs ABS is ... you're probably not going to really notice the sound difference just in switching caps. Maybe a bit.

Note that the function key row on the AEK and AEK II uses comically tall key stems and that they're rotated 90 degrees.

Oh. Channeling Mu. If you want quiet, go out and get an HHKB or other Topre.

Oh, thank you! I'll look into that. Also, I've thought about getting a topre board, but sooner turned my head to a BTC with slider switch as I've heard good things about them all the while at the fraction of the cost.

[Muirium]

Channeling that Mu guy as well: I’d say by all means explore. Exploring is the fun! Take a stop by Topre when you already have a good bit of experience under your fingers. It’s a subtle feel. Best appreciated when you’ve already been through a good quest to find The One. And besides, you’re not guaranteed to like it.

Just don’t go overboard and spend too much before you turn to the good stuff! Be curious.

[LambdaCore]

Just don’t go overboard and spend too much before you turn to the good stuff! Be curious.

That's been the exciting thing, I've been able to score a lot of my keyboards fairly cheap. I think I've spent about a hundred so far, which included one (now two) unicomps, two FK 2001s (one with clones, another complicated Alps) and a Matias board all through good deals I found online. Currently I'm looking at the BTC 5100C, but that layout... it's almost perfect but that damn FN key right where ctrl should go

[Palatino]

You could always remap Fn and Ctrl if it’s important to you. I’d say it’s worth getting/making a Soarers converter or similar at some point if you’re sticking around in this hobby for a decent length of time. The BTC 5100C is one of my favourites: great texture on the keycaps and a really fun, funky sound to it. I like my 5100 too (Foam and Foil rather than Dome and Slider), but I may have got lucky there with the condition of the foam: it’s generally not as popular.

[jsheradin]

You could always remap Fn and Ctrl if it’s important to you. I’d say it’s worth getting/making a Soarers converter or similar at some point if you’re sticking around in this hobby for a decent length of time. The BTC 5100C is one of my favourites: great texture on the keycaps and a really fun, funky sound to it. I like my 5100 too (Foam and Foil rather than Dome and Slider), but I may have got lucky there with the condition of the foam: it’s generally not as popular.

Be warned that the Fn key can't be remapped using a converter on the 5100 (at least the one I have). It does all the layer shifting internally and never sends a keycode.

[hellothere]

I've got a 5100C, too! When I got my Topre, I dug out my 5100C again to compare. I can definitely see why people make the comparison, but the Topre is much, much better.

One rule of thumb is that you should get a 5100C that has a 5-pin DIN, not one with a PS/2 cable. Additionally, the BTC dome/slider full-size keyboards are supposed to have a superior feel, which I can somewhat confirm. Also note that some have a 6-pin DIN or DB-9 serial connectors. You don't want those.

My BTC-5100C looks like this one. The legends on the front of the caps are actually light blue.

[LambdaCore]

Be warned that the Fn key can't be remapped using a converter on the 5100 (at least the one I have). It does all the layer shifting internally and never sends a keycode.

This is exactly why I'm not sure I want to look into one lol...

And as for Topre... I have yet to find a cheap topre board, but if I find one I'll definitely snag one! Any particularly noteworthy affordable topre boards?

[Bjerrk]

Any particularly noteworthy affordable topre boards?

Nope.

Evil tongues may point out that Topre is characterized by a general lack of noteworthiness and affordability.

Not me, though! But evil tongues might!

[Muirium]

Correct. Topre can be immensely underwhelming on first encounter if, for instance, all you’re used to the snap crackle and pop of MX blue, which I consider their antithesis: all bark and nae trousers!

To summon that ancient demon Mu :

Give Topre time to get accustomed. It's a grower. A little too subtle at first for its own good, until, without noticing, you get used to it and crave it everywhere.

I’ve got a bit of a soft spot for clicky MX switches, actually. (MX white is the best of the wayward three.) They zing, and yet they don’t get any better than that immediate UR SURE CLICK’N NOW BOY! first impression. Nagging yet incoherent dissatisfaction expressed as a keyboard. I could even call them duḥkha in a key switch. Putting them back away again and pulling out the HHKB is a moment of sublime reawakening. Omm …

[Muirium]

Be warned that the Fn key can't be remapped using a converter on the 5100 (at least the one I have). It does all the layer shifting internally and never sends a keycode.

This is exactly why I'm not sure I want to look into one lol...

Well researched laziness!

To my knowledge, this is *always* the case with Fn keys on vintage keyboards. (Not to be confused with F1 etc, of course. As if!) Fn was an implementation detail. Modern Apple boards send Fn to the host as an additional modifier key, and there could well be other modern board which do the same. But the CM/Topre NovaTouch (the only modern non-Apple board of mine with an Fn key) sure doesn’t. In fact I should really remove its sense spring! Bloody useless rapid fire bollocks.

And as for Topre... I have yet to find a cheap topre board, but if I find one I'll definitely snag one! Any particularly noteworthy affordable topre boards?

Well, I just got my second HHKB last week for £128, new. That’s not bad for my top daily keyboard as far as I’m concerned. (Though I immediately added rings to it and Hasu’s currently cooking up my controller, so it’s more in the end!)

[Bjerrk]

Regarding the BTC-5100C and its Fn key, there are of course a couple of solutions:

Since the board isn't membrane based (despite what one might immediately assume, when hearing the word "rubber dome"), it is somewhat doable to rewire the matrix a bit. I personally moved Ctrl to Fn's original spot, since I find the alternative placement abhorrent.

It is also in principle possible to rewire the Fn key to some other key you never use, and then map that keycode to a layer key in e.g. your TMK PS2/USB converter. Then the little Fn key can do whatever you want it to.

It is a bit tricky, though, since it isn't particularly nice to start digging up traces, and there are few good solder joints. I ended up rewiring it on the controller, since the Fn key shares its traces with very little else (AFAIR). (Thanks to an_achronism for helping with that part, btw!)

Here's a pic of the PCB I took - for inspiration !

[Muirium]

Hacking the matrix itself is, of course, a lot more work but will gain you access to that irritating key!

It is also in principle possible to rewire the Fn key to some other key you never use, and then map that keycode to a layer key in e.g. your TMK PS2/USB converter. Then the little Fn key can do whatever you want it to.

Rewire to remap!

As long as that key's visible to the converter at all, you're gold. I often have things use the *spit* Insert key, which I remap to Apple's own Fn key in Karabiner.

[Bjerrk]

I usually go for Scroll Lock or Pause/Break if they're there. Insert is a bit useful in the UNIX/Linux terminal, but it's also a huge nuisance (who doesn't hate ending up in "overwrite" mode?).

[Muirium]

Those three keys above the nav sixpack are habitually Mute, Vol- and Vol+ for me.

There's plenty of things you can map to, well out of the way of course. I have Fn + Esc on my HHKB set to F24, which Karabiner translates to Apple's screen-lock key. Gives me instant access to locking out the computer while I'm off for tea.

(Karabiner has the power to synthesise a bunch of non-standard stuff TMK / QMK / Soarer's can't. Where there's a will, there's a kludge!)

[Muirium]

Finally got my AEK converter soldered up and operational. I was about to order one from Hasu when I found all the parts I bought years ago in storage while I was looking for Hypersphere's rings. A little quality time with the soldering iron later and here we are: my best AEK II back out and in action again. The last time I used this was back on the blue & white G3!

How is an AEK II after all these years? Pretty nice. Just pulled a cap to be sure: yep, creams. (My other one has whites.) This board's a nice mellow blend of tactile and quiet. It's definitely more "switchy" feeling than my daily HHKB. But it's really quite nice for a change, and the Apple native layout is a dream. I've mapped latching Caps Lock to Layer 1 in TMK, and I've made that layer "transparent" besides the numpad now mapped to mouse keys. I just leave Caps Lock toggled down and I don't need to reach my mouse. A use for full-size after all! Tempted to reverse matters and make mouse keys the default, actually…

As for this keyboard's almighty reputation amongst certain old-school Mac users: I can well understand it, if you've used no better it's really pretty good. The look is good, the key profile is very good, and the switches are better than most. If I liked more "switchy", latchey, mechanism-feeling tactility, I'd appreciate these. They're nowhere near as "mech" feeling as black space invaders, but they're a tiny fraction of the racket too!

I'm spoiled. It's always Topre for me when it comes to quiet keyboards. But this one's interesting, with a wealth of beige era Apple character, and it's just earned itself a place in my rotation.

Now, to see about that NeXT converter—which seems to need rebuilt for atmega32u4 aka my Teensy 2—and then working out somewhere to mount these little guys on my desk. These vintage boards are itching for some use,