Help with finding small keyboard I'll like (b/c I hate...)

[warty]

And of course, by "good", I mean something totally subjective.

I've been using computers for a long time, and so have gone through lots of keyboards (and I learned on typewriters). I don't have experience with every switch type or keyboard brand, so I'm running into bad choices, and I want to ask for some advice.

I am of course on a quest for the "best" keyboard(s). I'm happy enough with my Model M full size keyboard for home, but I would like a small form factor keyboard for work. Well, I would use a small one at home too if I liked it enough.

Background: My favorite keyboards so far, in order of preference:
1. model M
2. apple M0110 (mac 128/512 keyboard)
3. apple extended I/II ( I use this at work because it's quieter than the Model M, but going to floss one here soon...)

There's quite a gap between numbers 1/2 and #3 really. I like the solidness of both the Model M and the M0110. The M0110 is a great form factor, but I can't seem to come up with a keyboard map that (for me) provides a good enough solution for cursor keys. And I tried a bunch.

So then I bought a KBT Pure, with blue switches, thinking that would be close to the switches in the extended I/II, and that it had a great 60 layout. To me, the clickety sound felt cheap. So I ordered one with Brown switches, hoping it would be better. For me, it felt cheap. dead. But it has really cheesy thin keycaps. So I got some SPH keycaps from Round 4 (thanks seller!). These are nice thick keycaps, but sadly, the switches still feel like they are dead.

So... is the thing I like about the Model M and the M0110 not the switches, but the big heavy plate they are on? I don't know much about this, but I see some threads about plate-mounted this, and plate-mounted that. Or maybe cherry switches are never going to work for me?

There has to be someone out there with similar preferences to me... what would YOU recommend for ME, in trying to find a small-form-factor keyboard?

PS: 2 KBT Pure's for sale if anyone wants them.

[Muirium]

None of your top 3 boards use Cherry switches. So that's the problem! You don't like MX. Despite what many shops would have you believe: not everyone does. First solution: explore other switches.

Small keyboards? Good! You have already figured that side of the equation. Join the club.

I'll tell you my two Holy Grail keyboards. First, from the familiar world of buckling spring: the SSK. Out of production, not as small as a modern TKL, let alone a 60%, but exactly the spring you know. Highly sought after. High price tag.


Second: the HHKB. Topre switches. Completely unlike Cherry or buckling spring. High build quality, amazing layout and ideal size. Sweet dyesub PBT caps, too, like IBM's finest. Just as sought after as the SSK. Even higher priced.

Unlike buckling spring, you don't already know Topre. So bear that in mind if you hunt one of these. Fortunately, they are both the easiest keyboards in the world to sell on again. High demand, small size and iconic.

There's a world of caps to play with on Cherry, and choice after choice in keyboards. But I've never heard of anyone giving up an SSK or HHKB in the revelation that Cherry switches are just what they were always looking for. But the other way is quite common!

Save your pennies. Take the hit. And tell us how it turned out.

[warty]

I've been looking at those HHKBs for a few years. I picked up a the cheapo (ahem) dome version a few years ago for a hardware modding experiment. I've been reading here and at GH about the topre's, with RealForce and HHKB. It seems like it's one of those switches you either love or don't care for. But I'm glad to hear someone who likes the buckling springs likes them.

I think maybe you can't get a HHKB with the topres AND dedicated cursor keys, right? I like the layout of that recent Leopold FC660 (and I don't even hate the weird top-right keys), but I am worried now it's not the switches as much as the solidness of the M0110 and Model M I like.

HMMMMMMMMMM.

Thanks for suggestions and encouragement.

[Muirium]

Hmmm indeed. Matt3o knows and loves both buckling springs and Topre. Here's his review of a few relevant boards to give you some ideas:

Leopold FCC 660C
http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t5730.html

Topre Realforce 87U
http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t6128.html

He just got an SSK this week, so perhaps he'll tell you his latest ranking! They are definitely very different, Topre and buckling spring. But both share an absence of crappy keyboards with cheap shortcuts like so many else out there.

[hasu]

Maybe I have similar taste of keyboard. I love small keyboards and basically prefer light weight linear or less tactile switches.

M0110 is my favorite keyboard but its swithes are a bit heavy to me unfortunately. I love its look and linear switch feel and the board is great for short session, less than 5min! I had sore on my finger joints after long use. I wanted to use M0110 on my PC and made a keyboard protocol converter. You can use your M0110 on PC and define your own keymap layers with my converter.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/tre ... /m0110_usb

Yeah, I like unique feel of Buckling Spring too. I wanted 60% Model M but couldn't find it. So I made it myself. But BS was also too stiff to me, my fingers seem to be very very weak
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=29483.0

I also like Apple Extended keyboard I(M0115) and its orange Alps(nice tactile switch). I liked to use old compact Apple keyboards like Apple IIGS keyboard and M0116 in addtion to M0115, my ADB converter was for this purpose. With this converter you can define your own Fn layer again.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=14290.0

I'd say that your "best" keybaord may not exist in the market and if so DIY will be the only way to get the "best" keyboard.

After all, my current daily driver is my own custom HHKB, but I don't think I found my "best" yet.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047.0

[Muirium]

It's surely a golden age for classic keyboards. You can do a lot more with them now than when they were new. And it's no small thanks to Hasu! I use a huge XT via Soarer's converter myself, and Hasu's firmware is going into my own custom 60%. I've stronger fingers, evidently, as I love buckling spring and my custom is getting Cherry MX greens. Fortunately all these things are possible now! Thanks to you guys.

[Halvar]

I guess that if you only know Cherry MX Blue and Brown so far and they feel too light ("cheap") to you, you should probably first try to find a way to test the Cherry switches that have stronger springs also, namely MX Clear, Green and Black (tactile, clicky and linear variants). Using Cherry MX has some advantages in respect to keyboard model availability and ease of modification, and their quality is beyond doubt for me.

Choice is very limited with BS and Topre, and I'm not even sure if you'll like Topre.

[davkol]

derp

[Muirium]

Matias is an interesting idea. They make their own Alps switches these days. Just two flavours: clicky and tactile. Could have positive similarities with your classic Apple boards. The trouble is the keyboards. Matias' own keyboards have a mixed reputation for build, fit and feel; and the only other route to their switches that I know is to build a custom. 7bit sells the switches for an attractive price, and Matt3o has a Matias design in the pipeline. I'm intrigued to see how it works out. I quite like the clicky switches and there's a lot of great old Alps-mount caps out there.

Halvar's point about exploring more Cherry is also worth considering. The thing I like least about MX is the tactile mechanism. I like the high pitched click enough to forgive blues (and I've 69 greens in the mail for my all metal 60%) but browns and clears don't inspire me. Blacks and reds are quite nice though. But I much prefer the smooth click of buckling spring overall. Cherry switches feature in my plans out of practicality and experiment. If I could do the custom stuff with buckling springs instead, I would.

[warty]

Hasu:

I actually use your mod for the M0110. Still about the greatest retro thrill to type on that old beast. But you are right, the keys ARE heavy. Mostly, I like that just for the form factor (and it looks great with a retro-cased-but-very-modern-innards mac plus), and for the rock-solid base.

I have looked at your Model M-as-a-HHKB a few times. I'm pretty terrified of my ability to cut that case apart neatly. Well, and my soldering skills are pretty darn bad, especially at small sizes.

But I agree in principle: probably, what I want ("need" is probably not a word that should be used on this forum) probably doesn't exist. Something like a Model F AT but with the layout of the FC660C. Not that I would cut of a Model F for that, I can't even find an F AT to buy. Hmm. I wouldn't mind cutting up a Model F XT though. Hmmmmm.

Is it possible to wire a BS keyboard up to a matrix? I take it's not, because of the capacitive thing?

[warty]

Halvar:

The trick there would be to be able to test some of those other MX types, and a Topre, without buying them. Maybe there will be a Minnesota keyboard meetup some time. I like the sound of the plate-mounted Topres, but I've never even touched a topre, and I know I dislike all the rubber domes I've used up to now, so hmmmmmm. OTOH, I guess they are right, an HHKB would be dead easy to sell.

[warty]

Davkol/Mu:

I'm not *that* crazy about the alps, to be honest, so not sure about the Matias thing. Well, I guess it would be a lot better than the Cherries for me. Hmm. a 66 key Alps board would be nice.

[Hypersphere]

If you liked the Model M, I think the only thing you will be truly happy with is the IBM SSK. Perhaps summarizing my own saga will be helpful to you.

I used a full-size Model M for many years, but recently, for various reasons, I became interested in TKL boards. I got a Filco MJ2 TKL with Cherry blues. It was a nice, solid board as far as contemporary boards go, but I was not really satisfied with it.

More recently, I became interested in even smaller form factors (in the 60% to 75% percent range, with TKL being 80%). So, I tried the Leopold FC660M, Tex Beetle, and Poker II. These were intriguing, but not quite there.

A friend allowed me to test his new Matias Mini Tactile Pro. I like the layout and I like the feel of the switches, but I do not like the appearance of the board, and the sound has something irritating about it.

Thinking I should try a stronger Cherry switch, I got a CM QF Stealth TKL with Cherry greens. This was the best of the Cherry switch boards I had tried. Very solid, but still not as good as my Model M.

Finally, I was able to find an IBM SSK in excellent condition. It was like coming home, but to a TKL form factor.

I then lined up all the boards and assessed my speed and accuracy using online typing tests. I found that the ranking was as follows: IBM SSK > CM > Filco > Leopold > Poker II > Tex Beetle.

With respect to build quality and appearance, I would rank them as IBM SSK > CM ~ Beetle ~ Filco > Leopold > Poker II.

So, overall, the winner is the IBM SSK, with the CM QF Stealth TKL w/ green switches coming in second.

I hope that this might be helpful in your own search.

[Muirium]

Something like a Model F AT but with the layout of the FC660C. Not that I would cut of a Model F for that, I can't even find an F AT to buy. Hmm. I wouldn't mind cutting up a Model F XT though. Hmmmmm.

Is it possible to wire a BS keyboard up to a matrix? I take it's not, because of the capacitive thing?

The trouble with making a custom IBM is that neither Model M (membrane) nor Model F (capacitative) use discrete keyswitches. Model Ms rely on a membrane that you have to fold when you shrink one in size, or get down and dirty drawing circuits for yourself. Model Fs are like Topre: the capacitative matrix is not witchcraft, but the sensors are built into the solid PCB beneath the switches. While with Alps or Cherry you can hold the whole switch mechanism right between your fingers, as one convenient, discrete piece.

I hear there's progress in the works on Model F, but nothing I'd prepare to order up in a group hack quite yet. For now, the only small form factor buckling spring is the SSK.

[bhtooefr]

I believe there's been custom membranes done for the Model M, too.

And, there are smaller form factor BS layouts than the SSK - the Wheelwriter 3 has a smaller layout, and there's also a 60% Model F.

[Hypersphere]

It would be great to have IBM BS in a 60 - 70% layout. I remember seeing a post for a custom "M-60" on GH some time ago. Has this project been completed? In the meantime, I continue to type on my current top pick, an IBM SSK, although I switch it out periodically for some variety and to remind me what a great keyboard it is.

[Muirium]

And, there are smaller form factor BS layouts than the SSK - the Wheelwriter 3 has a smaller layout, and there's also a 60% Model F.

Well, there is of course the 60% beam spring.

So there are options out there!

[snoopy]

If you like the normal Model M, you will love the SSK... serious, go for the SSK!

[Muirium]

If this was a poll, you already know the winner. Reputations are often deserved.

[Findecanor]

I am of course on a quest for the "best" keyboard(s). I'm happy enough with my Model M full size keyboard for home, but I would like a small form factor keyboard for work.
...
2. apple M0110 (mac 128/512 keyboard)

I interpret
- "Work" => silent.
- Buckling spring => you like almost linear/heavy
- Apple M0110 => you like linear/heavy

Quiet, heavy and (almost) linear modern switches:
- Cherry MX Black (linear).
- Cherry MX Green (lightly clicky, loud as MX Blue).
- Cherry MX White (lightly clicky, silent)
- Cherry MX Clear (tactile)
- Topre 55g (tactile, more like Alps)

Have you tried Cherry MX Blacks? They are linear and heavy, but not too heavy. Very common.
Have you considered tenkeyless keyboard with Cherry MX switches at work?

If you have, then there are more options:

Smaller than tenkeyless:
- Filco MiniLa / MX Black
- KBT Race / MX Black
- The Deck TG3 that Ascaii has in the Marketplace / MX Black

Tenkeyless:
- CM Storm QuickFire Rapid (MX Green)
- Any tenkeyless with MX Black

I think that the ideal for you would be a Leopold FC 660R with MX Whites.. but I don't think they exist.

[Hypersphere]

[quote="Findecanor"][quote="warty"]I am of course on a quest for the "best" keyboard(s). I'm happy enough with my Model M full size keyboard for home, but I would like a small form factor keyboard for work.
...
Smaller than tenkeyless:
...
- KBT Race / MX Black
...
Tenkeyless:
- CM Storm QuickFire Rapid (MX Green)
...
...

If you might be considering a sub-TKL in the 75% (84-key) category with Cherry mx switches, such as the KBT Race, I have recently tried a board with a similar layout, the Keycool 84 (White with PBT keycaps, no backlighting) with Cherry mx blues. I did not expect to like it, but I did.

And if you might be considering a TKL with Cherry mx switches, I have recently tried the CM QuickFire with Cherry mx green switches. I happened to try the Stealth version, but the non-Stealth version should functionally be the same. This board is the first contemporary model I have tried that felt like a real keyboard, suitable for serious work. Based on my typing speed and accuracy (as gauged by online typing tests) along with perceived build quality, typing feel and sound, and appearance, I would rate the CM QF second to my IBM SSK out of a field of 9 keyboards that I have tested recently.

[warty]

rjrich:

I then lined up all the boards and assessed my speed and accuracy using online typing tests. I found that the ranking was as follows: IBM SSK > CM > Filco > Leopold > Poker II > Tex Beetle.

With respect to build quality and appearance, I would rank them as IBM SSK > CM ~ Beetle ~ Filco > Leopold > Poker II.

So, overall, the winner is the IBM SSK, with the CM QF Stealth TKL w/ green switches coming in second.

That is very helpful, thanks. I am still thinking about the Leopold FC660, because of the layout, but build quality is important. I have to say I feel a bit burned by the KBTalking boards.

[warty]

Mu: oh, wow. A beamspring. Look at this beautiful one (you already saw this, I know):

(from this post: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/beam ... ml#p116912)

I love that an age has come where people can basically make things that work, with modern computers, connecting components that are 35 years old. wow.

[warty]

Findecanor:

Thank you for the analysis. I think you nailed my prefs (and what 'work' means). I'd love to try those switches. Which brings me to: is there a cheap way to test a variety of switches?I find buying keyboards a pretty expensive way to try a key for the first time.

I was in Japan a few months ago for a week, and went to 2 computer shops that were supposed to have topres, but one closed up 3 days before I got there, and the other had one realforce keyboard, but it was some board I remember thinking I wasn't at all interested in.

I'm taking a note about your suggestions...

I think the group as a whole pointed out what I was starting to suspect:
1. I like BS better than anything else.
2. I can't have BS in a small form factor right now, although it looks like some progress is being made on a few fronts there, and maybe in a year or two, we'll be able to make custom layouts. Or at least there might be some small layouts we could do a group-buy on.
3. I should try the floss mod, and see If I can get away with it at work without driving everyone around me mad. And it's a cube farm, so there's a lot of everyones.

So a couple days ago I finally found a Model F AT. Typing on it right now. I think I could grow to love this thing. Obviously, I need to fix up the keys a bit (I am trying to find the link to the Model F ANSI mod). I'm using it at the moment on a regular PS 2 > USB adapter I had, but should have enough parts to make a teensie adapter in a few days.

Thanks everyone for all the advice and encouragement!

[Hypersphere]

There are times I wish I had never been introduced to buckling springs, but then I come to my senses and realize that tortured enlightenment is superior to blissful ignorance.

[uidroot]

There are times I wish I had never been introduced to buckling springs, but then I come to my senses and realize that tortured enlightenment is superior to blissful ignorance.

I could not have said it better myself.

However, I do prefer the lighter feel of topre opposed to the buckling springs. Like everything else, personal preference trumps most.