Alps SKCL/SKCM: Findecanor was correct

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I was always very dubious about the term "SKCL/SKCM Series", but having studied the spec sheets since, I hypothesised that SKCM in fact covered tactile switches, i.e. the click sound was considered a property of tactile switches, and not the other way around.

Sandy has now confirmed that, as of 1994, this is correct: SKCL is any linear variety (including double action), and SKCM is any tactile variety (including clicky).

Alps CM "compact" is not covered in the catalogue — presumably long since discontinued. It appears that C may have become B with simplified; I'll double-check that later. I think 1994 was still complicated — simplified was, what, 1996?

Sandy has given me all the known part codes for SKCL/SKCM as of 1994 including the grey Alps CM Lock. Trouble is, "Alps SKCLJC" is hard to use on the wiki — I might call it "Alps SKCL lock". I'll post these later.

There is no known term that covers both, so "Alps SKCL/SKCM series" is as close as we can get, for now anyway.

[Muirium]

"Alps SK"? It doesn't seem too far a jump to presume the similarities in name were intentional, until proven otherwise.

[Findecanor]

My attention span is too short to figure out what it was I was supposed to be correct about, but it is nice to know that I am correct about something.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

"Alps SK"? It doesn't seem too far a jump to presume the similarities in name were intentional, until proven otherwise.

According to Sandy, SK stands for "Single Key Switch".

SK is a generic code for a lot of their switches, e.g. http://www.alps.com/WebObjects/catalog. ... list1.html. It's not specific to SKCL/SKCM.

It's possible that "SKC" is the whole series, e.g. SK + C + [M, L] + [xx].

It's hard to be sure without having contemporary information: the Alps website has no record of either SKCA or SKCM. Looking at current parts, though, it seems highly unlikely. There's no clear relationship between pairs of series that share the same first three letters.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I checked the two Forward spec sheets I have for Alps simplified switches, and found something really interesting.

The one for SKBLFE (yellow, linear, no LED recess) is dated "SEP,11,'99".

The one for SKBMFA (white, clicky) is dated "91.07.16".

Chloe found these in 2009, and ROC 99 (1911+99) would be 2010, which would have made that document from the future if they were using the Minguo calendar. (The internal file metadata says 2003; my files are dated 2012.) (Someone should invite Chloe back, but to DT this time)

The wiki already notes that simplified switches appeared around 1988, but this remark (from when Sixty originally created the "ALPS CM" page on the wiki) is unreferenced and the confusion over "Simplified Alps Type X" could have led to a corresponding confusion over dates, since only "Type I" was actually related to Alps, even though Alps may have always had Forward make them.

However, that Forward spec sheet suggests that simplified switches were indeed in production as early as 1991!

Which is fun, because now simplified switches apparently do not belong on the Alps SKCM/SKCL page, as they have their own product codes.

The page either needs renaming "Alps SKCL/SKCM/SKBL/SKBM" or we do need a new new name to cover both pairs of switch families collectively.

[webwit]

I could say Alps SKC/SKB or Alps SK Mechanical or something like that, but you're much deeper into this shit to make a qualified decision. Most likely we're condemned to using Alps SKCL/SKCM/SKBL/SKBM because everything else is just a guess. One thing that bothers me is the complete absence of former Alps employees to clear this up, not only here but also on the Asian forums. They are like IBM employees from the time they still made stuff. Who seem to be like the Egyptian slaves who built the pyramids. Killed and buried with their dead king.

Chloe was nice. She was active before dt was founded and far ahead, but left without a trace. I doubt anyone has her contact details.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

She's not completely gone from GH — she left a message in August 2012, and last visited in May.

[Parak]

They are like IBM employees from the time they still made stuff. Who seem to be like the Egyptian slaves who built the pyramids. Killed and buried with their dead king.

Oh no, they very much still exist.. unfortunately, they are often just not very interested in participating from a hobbyist perspective

(from disappointing personal experience)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

/!\ WARNING /!\
LONG RAMBLE AHEAD
\¡/ WARNING \¡/

More often than not, I simply encounter radio silence. The chap from SMK was actually kinda rude, which seems odd for a Japanese person. I find Taiwanese companies by far the most helpful, but there's a massive language barrier problem — ideally we need a native Chinese speaker to research them directly.

The whole Alps/Forward story is weird. The million-switch story from Edgar Matias actually originated from Strong Man, who were rotten lying toads anyway (TP (1) and TP2 were both Strong Man). Strong Man kept the real details secret. Edgar did point out that he later learnt that Forward lost the rights to use the Alps logo and had to retool, but the disappearance of the logo seemed to come a year or two afterwards, with the Tactile Pro 2, which had the new "Strong Man switches" (or so Strong Man said; they were just the "new" logo-less Fuhua switches, in this case; in other cases, Strong Man passed off Hua-Jie AK series as "Strong Man switches", with the SMK-85 in particular.)

Alps and Forward split in March 2000, and the Tactile Pro 3 was announced over three years later (July 2003), so the million switches was nothing to do with Alps Electric's factory. It appears that Forward was already making these switches since 1991 or earlier, based on their 1991 spec sheet. It's possible that Forward wanted to close the production line, and Strong Man were trying to push their customers towards Cherry, apparently, which Diatec agreed to, as some Strong Man-made Filco keyboards were indeed Cherry MX. It's possible that Matias kept the Forward switch production line open.I need to check when the Majestouch Zero was released, as both that and the ABS M1 likely post-dated the Tactile Pro.

All we know is that the Tactile Pro had white switches originally, and then changed to grey without anyone noticing (not even Matias). These grey switches were branded in the TP, but unbranded in the TP2, and the TP3 suddenly reverted back to white with the move to Costar after Strong Man completely bungled the TP2.

(The confusion arises from the deception on the part of Strong Man. The Tactile Pro 4 isn't even Costar, either, as they weren't much better with the secrecy. (I only just learnt recently that Costar are just an intermediary between their customers and the actual manufacturers.) Matias are now working directly with factories in China for a more honest and open business relationship.)

As such, the name "Fuhua Alps" or "Forward Alps" appears to be 100% legitimate, as it looks like they always made them. I just try to keep names short and snappy, and it's hard to capture, in a single page, in a short name, "Switches designed by either Alps or Forward, but made for Alps by Forward¹, until Alps and Forward split, thereafter they belonged to Forward, but unbranded; part number families SKBL and SKBM" :)

¹ and this might not be true — Sandy has no record of them in his 1994 Alps catalogue, suggesting that Forward sold them directly

I was just thinking that it would be nice to have a brief introduction page that leads onto Alps SKCL/SKCM (complicated), and Fuhua Alps or Fuhua Alps SKBL/SKBM (simplified)

It's not inherently complicated, it's just that we don't have the relevant catalogues. Rather like all the gaps we have in Cherry's history, just worse.


(And I've left Chloe a PM at geekhack.)