Dual LED Cherry Mechanical or RGB mechanical?

[Bramster]

Hey guys,

Since Cherry and Corsair have their exclusive deal on Cherry RGB switches for 2014 we are not sitting still off course and we would like some feedback on the plans below!

We are thinking of a dual LED Cherry MX keyboard... The keyboard then will have 2 LEDs from the RGB (RG, RB, GB, GR, BR) and the color combinations we will be able to achieve you can see from the picture below. For example if we take Red and Green we will be able to have all the Color combinations with a Red and Green LED, so orange, yellow, etc.. (see pic below). Brightness and options will be similar to single color LED keyboards. Also individual lighting would be an option..


How about this plan? Would this be a good direction or will this be a not really good enough then a full RGB? Do note a dual LED switch is cheaper then a full RGB. Or would you still prefer RGB even if the price is higher?

[Bramster]

Example done by Chinese modders themselves with Dual color:

[Muirium]

Presumably the dual LED is a single component that (unlike bulky RGB LEDs) is small enough to slide into a normal MX switch?

I wonder how well balanced the colours are. Because blue LEDs are far mode powerful than the other base colours. They kick out a lot more light quite naturally. You have to really ramp up red or green to balance them. Anyway, the red-green zone of the spectrum is the most appealing to explore, I think, with shades of yellow and orange.

But the real challenge in backlighting is yet to be solved: high quality caps. (Unless Deck really did do transparent doubleshots…)

[Bramster]

More example pictues:

[Bramster]

Presumably the dual LED is a single component that (unlike bulky RGB LEDs) is small enough to slide into a normal MX switch?

I wonder how well balanced the colours are. Because blue LEDs are far mode powerful than the other base colours. They kick out a lot more light quite naturally. You have to really ramp up red or green to balance them. Anyway, the red-green zone of the spectrum is the most appealing to explore, I think, with shades of yellow and orange.

But the real challenge in backlighting is yet to be solved: high quality caps. (Unless Deck really did do transparent doubleshots…)

Thanks for the input, all things we indeed have to think about Murium

[matt3o]

I believe that "Full RGB LED" is more of a marketing buzz phrase than a real necessity. The problem is that corsair already presented a full colored Christmas tree keyboard... so... depending on price range it might be difficult to market a backlight mechanical keyboard that has a limited range of colors. Of course unless the CM costs a fraction of the corsair's.

The only benefit I can see of a full rgb is that I can choose my color (not that I can do funky disco lighting). That being said I would probably stress on quality. Considering that SMD leds can hardly be replaced at home, personally I would prefer a 1 color backlight with a low break rate to a full low quality rgb matrix.

An alternative would be a replace warranty the first year for even just 1 broken LED (a bit like samsung's 1 pixel warranty for LED monitors)

[BimboBB]

full rgb > dual led

kids in germany going crazy about backlight keyboards. it will make a huge difference for them if you offer half RGB or full RGB.

[wheybags]

This is kinda the wrong place to ask about LEDs, it seems most people on DT aren't massive fans of backlighting

[Muirium]

True, but we are into keyboard design enough to still think about it. I'm not anti lighting so much as I'm a stickler for doubleshot or dyesub caps. There's an ideal solution out in the distance somewhere. Like doubleshots where the legend plastic is a solution of light emitting material so the legend glows perfectly, without leak.

We're a while away yet!

[Grond]

Are all gamers really into tacky multicolor leds? If I were a gamer, I think I'd rather care for performance over aesthetics. So I'd appreciate more technical features such as full programmability and durable keycaps, instead of distracting christmas tree lights.

[Muirium]

Gamers are as diverse as us keyboard aficionados. My one remaining serious gamer friend (we were all quite serious back in the 16 bit days but time moves on) had a look at my keyboards and decided that none of them is a significant step up from his worn old rubber dome & wireless mouse combo. It's easily his oldest remaining peripheral, it looks older than my Model Ms with its worn legends and sloppy feel, but is probably 6 to 8 years old. My IBMs weren't cutting it. Not even my SSK. He liked the lights on my Shine 3 TKL, but was scared off by the blank caps and lack of numpad. I told him both things were optional, of course, and he said he'd think about it when they hit £20. Cheeky git.

His joystick meanwhile (he's into flight sims and Battlefield style FPS) glows with lights on every button and is the latest model to catch his eye. He tends to upgrade to another top of the line one every year or two, like graphics cards.

Oh, and his speakers logos glow in the dark. Distracting, given his projection screen's comparative dimness. Hmm, maybe there is a pattern…

I think he lost his way after the Amiga.

[kbdfr]

I wonder what the next hype will be. Smell emitting keyboards perhaps?

[Muirium]

I had one of those. A Model M. Tikka masala, I think. Until I finally got it clean with a bolt mod and coffee soak…

[BimboBB]

....and CM should stick with the mod-friendly QFR layout, even if its a backlight keyboard (you can switch off lights ). Corsair's RGB christmas tree has a weird 6.5 spacebar.

[Findecanor]

I would still like to push for a combination of warm white and another colour.

If not white/red, red-green like Murium suggests. If you do red/green or red/yellow with enough steps of PWM to get different shades of red/orange/yellow, then I would like to see a fire effect. Not terribly useful, but fun. It is a classic effect, just scale it down to fewer pixels ...
Fire is hot. Corsair's rainbow effect is so gay.

We have still also to see a proper marquee effect on a backlit keyboard. I think that you could compensate for the staggering by scrolling fast enough and scrolling each row in turn.

I agree on having only 1.25 modifiers and a 6.25 space bar on the bottom row, all with centred stems. It is a de-facto standard which gives the buyer the most options if he wants to change the keycaps.

More importantly, I think that you should use Soarer's method for getting n-key rollover on all major operating systems and be compatible with crappy BIOS:es. It is simple: Unless the BIOS has asked for the boot protocol, always send both a boot protocol report on endpoint 0 and a n-key report on another endpoint, but declare the boot protocol report as empty in the report descriptor. That way a crappy BIOS that assumes that the keyboard only talks the boot protocol will read the boot protocol report, and a proper USB HID stack will ignore the boot protocol report and read the n-key report.

[IvanIvanovich]

Hey, I mentioned this in the favorite led color poll... using bi-color leds. I think it's a good idea if you pair the colors well. There should be a bright day mode color like blue, and one that is easier on the eye for dark use like orange.
Rosewill have fullsize model out that appears to be based on Costar reference with this already for about $130. CM should do this on the QFR.

[Monkay]

I would like white and orange most.

[RC7]

Since Cherry and Corsair have their exclusive deal on Cherry RGB switches for 2014...

Can you clear something up here? Does not Cherry provide only the clear housing which only allows LEDs to shine through it? How does Cherry (or Corsair) have any control over what color(s) of LEDs you put under the switch? The LEDs don't come from Cherry do they?

I am working on a rather different kind of project from making a traditional alphanumeric computer keyboard. I want to make some control panels for video switchers (BlackMagicDesign ATEM to be exact). THe industry tradition is to use white translucent key caps with color/white illumination from below. The kinds of switch made for this application cost the better part of US$10 each (or more).



I would love to use something like a Cherry MX RGB with a flat top white translucent key cap for this application.

Having just arrived here, I am rather confused about the status of various group buys and what is available, etc. Are the clear housings available exclusively to Corsair, or can we make a group buy of the MX RGB clear housings?

And what are the possibilities of finding a flat-top white translucent (or clear translucent) key caps for this application. I suppose it would be asking too much for two-part caps with removable tops to allow users to insert custom legends?

[kint]

Yet unclear until someone opened a Corsair board I'ld say. AFAIK bottom line is: the LED is SMD on the PCB. The clear housing developed with Corsair bears a lens in it. Cherry promotes the switches on their website and 7bit seems to be hopeful too: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... ml#p142572
Doesn't necessarily mean they will be available for group buys or manufacturers other than Corsair anytime soon though. Cherry did have waiting times for rather random group buy switches of half a year before, because their production plan was different and they didn't have enough stock.

Average two part caps with clear tops are very common - check for TIPRO, original cherry, ACCESS IS or other Point of sale keyboards. Having a bottom cap part that lets enough light shine through is the trick thing. Most caps will block the light out, maybe Devlin is the way to go.
Also: welcome to the forum.

[Bramster]

....and CM should stick with the mod-friendly QFR layout, even if its a backlight keyboard (you can switch off lights ). Corsair's RGB christmas tree has a weird 6.5 spacebar.

Backlight will always be possible to switch off... For what layout this project will be is not sure yet.. Just to check market interest and collect feedback. Can be TKL, fullsize, ....

[Muirium]

I'd say TKL is the natural winner here (or even smaller) but the DT bias to compact keyboards is well known. Personally, the only fullsize keyboard I'm anywhere interested in is the Topre HiPro, but I could wind up making my own in TKL with the Novatouch and Round 5 caps!

Definitely stick to 1.25 mods though. Every group buy has those covered in its most basic kits. And many go no further.


@RC7:

Obviously, I can only guess about those new underlit transparent MX switches. But for what it's worth, standard MX lighting (with the diode on top) may be shown like this:

But when you put on blank caps it really looks like this:

Just a little blob of light on the cap, very much off centre. Which is why backlit caps squeeze the legends into that area.

Considered Matias? These have been out a few years and are what Cherry shamelessly copied with their own clear shell:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Matias_switch
7bit sells the switches good and cheap. But you'll need even better luck with getting transparent caps. Could be impossible.

They can look quite nice when lit underneath:

But as for how this shows up on caps, I do not know. Anyone got some pictures?

[BimboBB]

Most important is the spacebar....keep it on 6.25. No 6.0, no 6.5 or other strange sizes which makes them close to impossible to replace.

I'd say TKL is the natural winner here (or even smaller) but the DT bias to compact keyboards is well known.

What I can say is that in germany most "newbies" (->new to mechas) still prefer fullsize over tkl. the loss of numblock is just too much for them. Best would be a TKL model & fullsize model. Or maybe a TKL model plus optional numpad model?

[Bramster]

What I can say is that in germany most "newbies" (->new to mechas) still prefer fullsize over tkl. the loss of numblock is just too much for them. Best would be a TKL model & fullsize model. Or maybe a TKL model plus optional numpad model?

A small formfactor with a numpad kinda is what our Quick Fire TK range is aiming at!

But I feel we might be drifting a little off topic with that haha?! "

RGB or dual color LED for you ?

[Broadmonkey]

Can you clear something up here? Does not Cherry provide only the clear housing which only allows LEDs to shine through it? How does Cherry (or Corsair) have any control over what color(s) of LEDs you put under the switch? The LEDs don't come from Cherry do they?

The problem is that the Cherry MX RGB switch is made exclusively available to corsair in 2014. These switches works in a way unlike normal MX switches regarding LEDs.
While normal MX has holes for a 3mm through hole LED, the MX RGB has room under the switch for an SMD led. This SMD led has the ability to use as many connections on such a small smd LED, this is what enables it to use RGB colors. The regular MX only has (factory made) room for an LED with two legs, and thus limited to a maximum of two base colors for each LED.

[kint]

I think this might be considered by "gamers" out there as a "cheap" knockoff of corsair.
Personally I can imagine having use for dual colours on some keys - but way more important than this is a good illumination to me, so unless this is solved, I think all of the backlit is just kiddieplay, sorry.
Why not engineer a quality illuminated keyboard instead of just stuff yet another LED into a board, slam the same old cheap caps on it and raise the MSRP a few bucks just to grab that tiny percentage of customers that dislikes the colour on the existing boards?
I understand that these are cheap bucks for CM to make, but no love from me for this. Sorry, no offence.

[Muirium]

I'm with you Kint. The colour of current backlighting isn't the problem: poor coverage and compromised caps are! Quite what CM can do about it, I don't know. Cherry made backlighting an eventual possibility by including LED mounts in its switches (for lock indicators) long ago. They work fine for that, with an LED window on the cap, but backlighting is a bit of a hack. I can't say I expect much from the transparent switch housing approach either. The LED needs to be closer, not further from the cap. Ultimately, it needs to be inside it.

Broadmonkey: Don't dual colour LEDs have three legs? One for each colour element plus a ground? RGB LEDs have four. They are also just too damn big to fit in the little hole that normal MX switches have for them. Once we get 3mm RGB LEDs, all this will be moot. Although we still won't have truly adequate backlighting.

[Broadmonkey]

Dual color LEDs can be achieved with only two legs, it's just a matter of changing the polarity. Granted I have not tested one myself or investigated much into it, so I don't know how well they work.

[Muirium]

Oh right, pulse one way for the red and then the other way for the green, and you've got yellow. A flickery one, albeit. I can see the strobing on my Ducky Shine 3 when changing brightness (I'm one of those annoying people who can't bear fluorescent lights) and I suspect that such a pin overloading trick would mean half the frequency. Not good if true.

[RC7]

Yes, for my application, I need only red/green, so a "bipolar" LED (red/green) will do fine. Yes the 2-led variety can create yellow (or shades between and brightness levels also) by pulse-width modulation. The pulsing is done very fast, so the eye cannot see any strobing.

Note that fluorescent lights strobe at the power mains frequency (60Hz in North America, and even worse 50Hz elsewhere). Modern fluorescent ballasts use electronic switching (vs. the old-school big heavy transformers) and the strobing is invisible because they run at thousands (or even tens of thousands) of cycles per second.

[Muirium]

Yet I definitely see it on my Ducky. As for lights: every LED light I've come across here strobes at a horrible 50Hz. Wave your hand and watch your fingers trail! Ugh. Doesn't bother me as much as old fluorescents – don't know why, but thankful – yet it is still highly noticeable. Same for electronics status lights.

Your picture makes me want to make a keyboard out of these guys!