For comfort, style, speed - spherical or cylindrical ?

[pietergen]

I've read a lot (the Deskthority wiki, endless Google searches, pics) but would like to get some info from people who can compare in real life.

Spherical versus cylindrical keycaps.... That is the question !

1- what is the main difference in feel? Do you feel the extra curve? What is more comfortable on the fingertips?

2- is there any difference, ultimately, on the strain/ pain/stress in the fingers & hands (all other factors being equal: layout, switches, keycap material) ?

3- errors.... cylindrical keycaps seem to have a larger surface = less typos. Is this right?

4- how about thumbing? On standard keyboards I like to use my thumbs for the bottom row. Including alt, ctrl, FN and so on. A spherical keycap seems less comfortable for this, because it's not flat side to side......

5- style: spherical caps keyboards seem to have larger aps between the keys / rows/ columns.... Cylindrical seem more 'closed' Is this true, in real life?

Specifically on the DSA profile:
6 - does the lower profile also mean a shorter travel? I hope not !

7 - in some pics I see height differnences between the alfa rows and the modifiers. Is this a wanted effect?


THANKS ! BTW, if there are sites or webpages somewhre on the wild wild web, point me to it! An sorry for being a newby

[davkol]

derp

[Muirium]

I've read a lot (the Deskthority wiki, endless Google searches, pics) but would like to get some info from people who can compare in real life.

Spherical versus cylindrical keycaps.... That is the question !

You've come to the right place. I use cylindrical and spherical (and even chiclet…) caps all the time. In fact, I suspect some of the pictures you mentioned were likely mine. I'm known for my flaunting, apparently…

1- what is the main difference in feel? Do you feel the extra curve? What is more comfortable on the fingertips?

It's quite subjective, I'm afraid. You will find that you prefer one over the other, but it's all down to you. I like sphericals the best. I don't hate cylindricals, and in fact some of them I really quite like. But it's just physical impression, rather than ideology that wins.

Reading words won't tell you what your fingers alone can know.

2- is there any difference, ultimately, on the strain/ pain/stress in the fingers & hands (all other factors being equal: layout, switches, keycap material) ?

Not that I can tell. The materials I use range from rough PBT to slick ABS, and I don't notice any difference besides what they feel like to touch. I don't type fast and prolonged enough to have RSI, however. Perhaps someone who does can advise?

Although I suspect it's down to the individual, really.

3- errors.... cylindrical keycaps seem to have a larger surface = less typos. Is this right?

Not for me. I typo consistently, everywhere! If there's any advantage to cylindricals, it's that you move vertically from key to key without noticing the rim as much. But I don't find this helps. I fly around all over the place much too high, besides.

4- how about thumbing? On standard keyboards I like to use my thumbs for the bottom row. Including alt, ctrl, FN and so on. A spherical keycap seems less comfortable for this, because it's not flat side to side......

Perhaps. I don't have any DSA (yet) but SA mods aren't the same shape as the alphas. In fact, here's a picture (which you may have seen before) of my SA covered NovaTouch:



The lighting helps get a sense for the depth of the keys. Only the single unit caps (like the function row) are truly spherical. The mods are more or less cylindrical. Also, note the space bar: it's still convex rather than concave. That makes it particularly comfortable to use, more so than some cylindrical space bars which can have a sharp front edge.

That's how it is with SA. Perhaps it's different with DSA, though.

(Bonus: the white caps in that picture are in fact cylindricals, just to give an impression. SA caps are very tall in comparison!)

5- style: spherical caps keyboards seem to have larger aps between the keys / rows/ columns.... Cylindrical seem more 'closed' Is this true, in real life?

Nope. The gaps between buckling spring cylindricals are quite wide compared to the sphericals on the NovaTouch. Yet this space invader here, with quite nice cylindricals, is packed tight. It's down to the keyboard and switch type more than the cap geometry.

Specifically on the DSA profile:
6 - does the lower profile also mean a shorter travel? I hope not !

Nope. Caps move precisely as far as the switch stem does. Tall caps don't move any further than short ones.

7 - in some pics I see height differnences between the alfa rows and the modifiers. Is this a wanted effect?

Here's one that really shows this effect.



Same set of SA caps as above, but before I got some extras, for that 60% custom layout.

SA has contoured row profiles, so you can get mistakes like that if you don't have just the right caps for what you're trying to accomplish. DSA is much simpler: no rows to worry about. Of course, I prefer the rows, even with the complexity they bring. In fact, rows are more important to me, I think, than cylindrical vs. spherical! I can type on flat boards, but a curved typing surface, with variable rows, is best. The keys lie closer to the motions of your hands. Just a little, but it helps.

THANKS ! BTW, if there are sites or webpages somewhre on the wild wild web, point me to it! An sorry for being a newby

Everyone starts as a newb. Curiosity is how you get out of it!

[REVENGE]

My personal take is that keycap height and angle have a lot more to do with comfort than the top profile.

[pietergen]

@ all - thanks for the welcome & answers! @ Miuruim: great pictures, thnx, and also for the very detailed answers !

[Muirium]

You're welcome. Now I suspect you have levelled up to an overinformed noob! Just a few more to go…

[Findecanor]

Spherical keycaps is the old norm. Cylindrical keycaps were developed from spherical keycaps to make it easier and cheaper to print on them. They are supposed to be typed the same way.
To compensate for the lack of a vertically curved front rim, the cylindrical keycaps are often angled more.

sphcyl.png (2.21 KiB) Viewed 16906 times

The flattening of the top/back edge has the effect that it is easier to avoid hitting the keycap on a lower row when pressing down a key, thus promoting a "flatter" way of typing, with your wrists resting on the desk. That is really the most significant difference.
By the way, there are vintage keyboards where the key top is more U-shaped with the print on the cylindrical part, but with still a spherically shaped front rim.

[pietergen]

Nice drawing Findecanor I had not realized that. Question then is: what is more relaxed,
- typing "modern style" with the wrists on the desk or laptop, with flatter (back to front) keycaps layed out for that style;
- OR typing "the old style" with your hands hanging free in the air and the spherical keycaps that are made for more 'vertical' landing finger tips?

Hard question! Empirical evidence should decide. I don't have it... I do know that the standard RSI prevention / treatment is now abandonned. They used to say 'use a wrist rest, with lots of gel and cushioning in it, put your arms on rest, only move your fingers'. But now they say - it's better to keep all joints and muscles moving, RSI comes from repeated small movements of small muscles; better use the larger muscles as well, and have more variation.

So that would mean that 'old style' should be better... hmmmm. right?

I'm asking this because I want to make a good keyboard. I'm using a Thinkpad (X220). The legendary keyboard is indeed better that the standard junk that you find on laptops, but I still find it disappointing. i bought the Thinkpad in the hope to have a laptop with an actually usable keyboard, but no .... My 15 year old HP laptop had a much better keyboard. OK, it weighs about 99999999850 kilos and has a battery that lasts 1 minute. But the keyboard ruled and the screensize was better too! 4 x 3 screens....!! but i'm digressing

I must say, I LOVE the look of those fat SA profile caps. Curvy ! It adds a third dimension to the KB. I can imagine mimicing a bit of that magic with the switch placement. Right? If you would mount DSA switches on a 'curved' plate, you'd have a bit of that effect as well, right? Are there pics of people who built THAT ? Thanks in advance. love this forum

[Muirium]

Nice drawing Findecanor I had not realized that. Question then is: what is more relaxed,
- typing "modern style" with the wrists on the desk or laptop, with flatter (back to front) keycaps layed out for that style;
- OR typing "the old style" with your hands hanging free in the air and the spherical keycaps that are made for more 'vertical' landing finger tips?

Hard question! Empirical evidence should decide. I don't have it...

Maybe there's something to this idea. I haven't tried DSA caps yet (they're waiting to ship to me…) but I've typed on SA extensively, and I can't say I notice the effect. SA has similar row profiles to cylindrical caps: the top surface is tilted. Findecanor's diagram better describes DSA.

But these things really are down to the individual. I loathe resting my wrists and "leaning up" to type, so my style is always coming down from above, and perhaps I notice this less.

I must say, I LOVE the look of those fat SA profile caps. Curvy ! It adds a third dimension to the KB. I can imagine mimicing a bit of that magic with the switch placement. Right? If you would mount DSA switches on a 'curved' plate, you'd have a bit of that effect as well, right? Are there pics of people who built THAT ? Thanks in advance. love this forum

In theory. IBM's buckling spring keyboards (still my favourites) have a curved plate, so you get that same smooth shape to the whole keyboard, but all the caps are interchangeable! This is the best of both worlds.

You could try hacking it with MX by making your own stepped plate. MX switches want to mount in a flat surface, so any curvature must happen between rows. However, that's asking for trouble with vertical keys like numpad Enter and ISO Return, if you have them. Plus it's a lot of added complexity, when you could just buy SA caps and be done with it! They're still in production you know.

[Hypersphere]

The IBM Selectric typewriter, introduced in 1961, was a beautiful and revolutionary machine designed for typists. It had lovely spherical keycaps. Spherical caps were still used on the IBM beam spring keyboards, but gave way to cylindricals with the introduction of lower-cost keyboards intended for use with personal computers. However, these facts tell us nothing about the relative comfort or speed associated with spherical vs cylindrical keycaps. As for style, it is a matter of personal preference, but I find the appearance of spherical caps more pleasant than cylindrical ones.

[Muirium]

There was a thread some time ago when we discussed when various things, like the move from spherical to cylindrical caps, began. It devolved into a fire fight between Webwit and I, if I remember. He was determined that sphericals just remind old gits of their youth. But I grew up with cylindricals and prefer spherical, and I'm not the only one. Neither is truly better, only different.

And just to counter Hyper, don't forget that IBM led the cylindrical invasion with the Model F!

Look at the 80s migration from spherical to cylindrical the same way as the recent move to flat chiclet caps in the mainstream, even on desktop boards. In the 80s: everyone followed IBM (even Apple on that occasion). In the 2000s: everyone follows Apple (even IBMnovo, right?). Fashion is fashion. You just follow the leader, good or bad.

[Hypersphere]

There was a thread some time ago when we discussed when various things, like the move from spherical to cylindrical caps, began. It devolved into a fire fight between Webwit and I, if I remember. He was determined that sphericals just remind old gits of their youth. But I grew up with cylindricals and prefer spherical, and I'm not the only one. Neither is truly better, only different.

And just to counter Hyper, don't forget that IBM led the cylindrical invasion with the Model F!

Look at the 80s migration from spherical to cylindrical the same way as the recent move to flat chiclet caps in the mainstream, even on desktop boards. In the 80s: everyone followed IBM (even Apple on that occasion). In the 2000s: everyone follows Apple (even IBMnovo, right?). Fashion is fashion. You just follow the leader, good or bad.

We are not in disagreement about IBM leading the cylindrical invasion!

[Findecanor]

SA has similar row profiles to cylindrical caps: the top surface is tilted.
Findecanor's diagram better describes DSA.

It's supposed to be an illustration, not a blueprint. But no, for home row or for curved backplane. DSA is like home-row SA that have been lowered and given more texture.

SA is contoured with ~6.6° difference between rows. DCS is contoured with ~4.4° angle between rows, so they can't be compared directly one to another.

[Muirium]

Ah, you have numbers? I wonder how buckling spring compares, effectively speaking. And Topre's caps, and NMB's space invaders (which I'm typing on just now and like quite a lot).

[DerpyDash_xAD]

I feel that the sphericals are better looking - but the keys need a curved mount for comfortable usage of sphericals. Also an upside-down cylindrical space is amazing.

I'm considering rotating all my keys 180 degrees - I feel it may be very comfortable.

[pietergen]

The profile thing is related to the question of "using a wrist rest yes or no", right? I mean, look at the Kinesis! After some thought, I see two ways of typing:

1. Use a wrist rest. Your hands should be relaxed, certainly not curved upwards, and in straight line with the arms. This would ideally mean a negative tilt; the wrist is at the highest point, fingers are horizontal or sloping down. Example; Kinesis. Or Ergodox with a high wrist rest. Keys should follow a 'bowl like' shape. Given that the wrist is the fixed point, the radius of that bowl is the length of the hand, including the fingers.

2. Let your hands float. Your hands should be relaxed, and in straight line with the arms. This can be done with any tilt of the keyboard. Negative tilt is very good. To reach further keys, you move your arms forward. The keys should be in a bowl shape, but with a much larger radius: the radius is that of the complete (but bent, 90 degrees) arm. Or is it? Maybe it is easier to move your arms in a horizontal plane? Perhaps this style should be broken down in two sub-styles:
2a. Both arm and fingers move. Closer keys (bottom row, home row) are typed with more curved fingers and futher keys (top row and above are type with more stretched fingers. ) This needs more finger movement and less arms movement
2b. Only arms move. All keys are typed with the exact same finger curvature. This seems to be the old school typing way - see old pics of typists.

Nowadays the advice is to let your arms float. But.... keyboards like the Maltron and the Kinesis want you to REST your arms and onlye move your fingers ???????? Experimenting a bit at home, I found that resting the wrist leads to possible more typing with overstrechted fingers, because you are lazy and keep your wrist on the pad...

Anyway:
- any reactions on my ramblings?
- what is the present advice on RSI prevention: float or rest?
- am I right in the thought that on a "rest" keyboard, one should use failry curved/sculpted keys, on a " float' keyboard there could be less curvature
- cylindrical keys may have a larger surface and be more forgiving on the angle how you hit them. Both are plusses. Spherical caps on the other hand have a smaller surface (a minus) but may have clearer distictions between the rows, not only the gaps, but also the rims. which may ?? be easier when touchtyping....
- and ideal keycap has the shape of the finger tip that hits it; and ideal switch is mounted in line with the angle of impact.
- the best angle of impact is 90 degrees: straight down. Because that stoke is best helped by the force of gravity. But, more important is to keep the hands staight. Some efficiency may be sacrificed for this. this leads to a flat keyboard. Wrist resters may strike the wrong key on multi row flat keyboards, but for a floater it does not matter --> flat it is. AM I RIGHT HERE ?

I want to build an Ergodox style KB. Maybe a bit smaller, and with a bit of tenting (GP style) I am a 'floater'. I think completely flat, with DSA caps will be right. Execpt for the thumb keys, which may be better cylindrical, or concave (!) or even LP keycaps for the thumb cluster?


Shoot, please!

[DerpyDash_xAD]

With cylindrical keys, I have decided that the space/mod row and the tab/qwerty row should be rotated 180 degrees.

[Muirium]

@Pieter: Ramblings aplenty! Instead of establishing a complete ergonomic taxonomy, let's limit things to what suits you. Floater?

[Hypersphere]

@pietergen: From what I have read and from my own experience with heavy typing during most of the day and almost every day of the week, it is not a good idea to use a wrist rest and/or arm rest. Instead, "floating" is recommended, keeping the wrists in a straight line with the hands. Beyond this, it makes sense to use a keyboard that appeals to you in every way, including sound, feel, and aesthetics. By using a good typing posture and taking frequent breaks, any keyboard can be "ergonomic".

During most of my career, I have mostly used IBM buckling spring keyboards (Model M 101; Model M SSK; and Model F XT) and I have never had a problem with RSI arising from the keyboard per se. However, some years ago I developed an ulnar nerve compression from allowing my elbows to rest on armrests while typing. The nerve problem was cured by avoiding the use of armrests.

[davkol]

derp

[pietergen]

@Muirium - sorry for the rambling And yes I am a ' floater', meaning I am used to not putting my wrists/arms on rests but to keep them hovering in the air...

@davkol - although I'm not a coder I do use vim Some things about vim are very ergonomic (/ for search, the modal concept in itself, etc. ) But others, like Esc, are not! Thanks for the link

@ hyper - thanks. Good advice. Take breaks - I do !

Anyway - I'll start building an ED. If the thumbcluster is not to my liking I can always change it. I'll dive into the posts, will find out where to source the parts etc. Maybe I shoulkd just order some blank DSA and DCS key caps to experiment what suits me best...

[Muirium]

Especially if you're in Europe, Czarek's doing ErgoDox PCBs and cases and such for fair prices.

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/erg ... t6972.html

As for caps, SP has blank DSA sets with ErgoDox options you can find here:

http://keyshop.pimpmykeyboard.com/products/full-keysets

PBT is a nice plastic, which doesn't shine or yellow as much as more regular ABS.

[pietergen]

Yep, I'm in EU (Groningen, Netherlands). Thanks for the links. I'll get to the ED threads to find the other info that I need.

[davkol]

derp

[pietergen]

@ davkol - indeed!

I was thinking about using simple chords for those functions. E.g. hit two alpha keys on the right hand (any two keys) = backspace Two simultaneous keys (any two keys) on the left hand = enter. Or maybe even 2 keys on the right + 2 keys on the left at the same time = something. I'l see in the Colemak forum on those ideas, over there you find the keyboard layout buffs.

[Hypersphere]

<snip>
@ hyper - thanks. Good advice. Take breaks - I do !
<snip>

Actually, I never take breaks.

[Muirium]

@Or maybe even 2 keys on the right + 2 keys on the left at the same time = something. I'l see in the Colemak forum on those ideas, over there you find the keyboard layout buffs.

I wouldn't call that a matter of layout, rather controller programming, but I'm sure they'll have opinions in any case!

Your ideas are pretty audacious if you think about how to implement them in the keyboard's internal logic. What seems simultaneous to us is typically a long time to fast moving silicon. To borrow an old Smiths title: How soon is "now"? You're into heuristic territory where you have to judge what delays to use, and how to get the best out of them to avoid false positives and negatives. It's trickier than it seems.

I'd like "tap arrows", for instance. So instead of needing a function key, I can just double tap [ to go up, ' to go right, etc., while if I press them once they work as usual. Even this is isn't easy. You have to figure out what precisely counts as a double tap vs. simply pressing them twice, and you have to hold on to the keystroke when waiting for the potential release and second press…

[pietergen]

@Mu - some research says that (qwerty) aa is harder on the hand than as, and that ak or al is even better (alternation). I've seen the idea of a repeat key - hitting is would repeat the previous key.

' ' for arrowup is interesting though. It will make typing slower, because the controller is waiting after the first ' if a second ' is coming..... Maybe a dead key (a.k.a. a sticky modifyer) is a better idea? I've seen the , as a dead key. Usually , is followed by a space. The rule would then be:
, plus space = , space
, plus non-alfa = , plus non-alfa
, plus alfa = symbols, arrows, whatever

Mods: If this should be in a different subforum, let me know pease

[DanielT]

My experience is with Cylindrical OEM and DCS caps and DSA . I prefer DSA, the surface is spherical , a general flat feeling, low, little gaps between the caps, is just perfect for my style of typing, which is a non conventional one (my fingers fly around the board left to right with no standard rule, that's why I find it impossible to type on an ErgoDOX) .
The Cylindrical caps are ok'sh , on my HHKB I like them, maybe also the Topre switches help along, but on the Poker I don't like them as much, too tall, too much space between the caps.
Recently I received a bunch of SA caps, just enough to make some tests, all Row 3, but nevertheless I got some picture of how they feel. I didn't like the feeling at all, too high and wobbly, I'll wait for my Round 5 caps to test a full keyboard with all the profiles, maybe I will change my mind, but I have my doubts.

[xwhatsit]

- Sphericals! The deep-dish F and J keys on a beamspring are so satisfying. Little F and J nubs get in the way forever after.
- Float, don't let your wrists lie down. Don't you remember your piano lessons?
- Vim escape-key-syndrome—why are you still using escape? Home row baby! Ctrl-[ is way easier once you get used to it (as long as you have Ctrl in the One True Position (what is Caps Lock?))