[Build Log] Custom 60% and numpad+ set - thoughts on layout?

[Plasmodium]

Hey all - I'm pretty new around here, but I thought I'd post a build log of a keyboard I will be making over the next few months, so I can get help and feedback from the community - and what an excellent community it is if I may say so! People here have been very helpful with my noob-ish questions so far!

The plan for this keyboard is to have it in two parts. A standard (ISO layout) 60% board and an external numpad which also includes the arrow keys and navigation cluster, as shown below. They will essentially be two separate keyboards (two Teensy controllers, one in each). This means I can carry the 60% section around with me as I want, and leave the numpad+ section at home so I have a full keyboard on my own desk! Nothing ground-breaking, but I'm not sure I've ever seen this exact configuration before...

layout.png (28.29 KiB) Viewed 2948 times

though I am considering an alternate layout for the right-hand side:
Though I think I am much less likely to use the three extra keys, and they will 'get in the way' more like this. Besides, they can always be on a function layer somewhere...

alt numpad.png (11.76 KiB) Viewed 2948 times

The case will be a pretty standard 'sandwich' case made from 1.5mm aluminium (top and bottom plates) and acrylic (the 'walls').
I'm having my plates cut by my local library's CNC machine Tuesday after next, so I guess what I'd like to ask at this stage is...is there a glaring error in my layout? Any gotchas I've overlooked?

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions when it comes to soldering (I plan to hand-wire it!) and doing the software!

[scottc]

I don't want to ruin it for you, but you can actually get pre-made keyboards with this exact layout. You could also get PCBs for the 60% too if you still wanted to DIY it. You can get some Qtronix somethingorother for the numpad etc. part also. I understand that it's fun to build from scratch though, so if that's what you're aiming for then don't let me get in the way.

Edit: I've just had a cool idea. Why not have a USB hub in the numpad part? Then you can permanently leave that plugged in to your PC, then when you take the 60% part home you just insert it into the already present numpad.

[jou]

As scottc said, both parts exists prebuilt. The numpad part exists as is as Qtronix Scorpius 32 which you can get for 20€ from eBay. But if you want to build it for the sake of building it your self, I'd say go ahead! It's great fun

I would split the right shift into 1.75U + 1U so you get a HHKB style FN key, if you don't mind extra difficultly to source a 1.75U shift key.

If you're a Mac user: Mac OS X manages modifier keys separately for each keyboard. If you want to make selection with the arrow keys, pressing shift on the main part and arrow on the external numpad won't select anything unless you install extra software to sync the modifiers.

[Plasmodium]

I don't want to ruin it for you, but you can actually get pre-made keyboards with this exact layout. You could also get PCBs for the 60% too if you still wanted to DIY it. You can get some Qtronix somethingorother for the numpad etc. part also. I understand that it's fun to build from scratch though, so if that's what you're aiming for then don't let me get in the way.

Edit: I've just had a cool idea. Why not have a USB hub in the numpad part? Then you can permanently leave that plugged in to your PC, then when you take the 60% part home you just insert it into the already present numpad.

You're quite right. It's all about the fun of building it myself. PCBs like that are quite expensive in the UK as well. I hadn't heard of a commercially produced big numpad like that before, though.

I did consider putting a USB hub in (my current board has one) but I was struggling to see how to make it work. I'm not sure I could route the main keyboard signals through the numpad without just making it a passthrough (and thus having a second cable anyway). My plan is to have a detachable cable, so I can unplug it at the keyboard end to save having to fiddle around behind my PC when I want to take it anywhere. The other problem is where to fit the USB sockets, as the bezel is quite small, so there's not a lot of space inside!

It's definitely something I'd try to put in on a v2.0, though, once I'm more familiar with the whole process!

[Plasmodium]

As scottc said, both parts exists prebuilt. The numpad part exists as is as Qtronix Scorpius 32 which you can get for 20€ from eBay. But if you want to build it for the sake of building it your self, I'd say go ahead! It's great fun

I would split the right shift into 1.75U + 1U so you get a HHKB style FN key, if you don't mind extra difficultly to source a 1.75U shift key.

If you're a Mac user: Mac OS X manages modifier keys separately for each keyboard. If you want to make selection with the arrow keys, pressing shift on the main part and arrow on the external numpad won't select anything unless you install extra software to sync the modifiers.

Thanks for the link to the numpad. I've never seen something like that before! But I guess I never looked very hard...

Good call on splitting the shift, though. I think I do have the caps, so I'll probably do that. I have plenty of time to do a new cad file.

I don't use Mac, fortunately, but I did wonder how OSes in general handle modifiers... I might need to read up on that. Edit: after a quick field test, it seems like Windows handles modifiers on different keyboards fine. I'll test Linux later...

[Plasmodium]

Ok. I've split the shift and fiddled around with the bottom row keys a bit.

60.png (16.54 KiB) Viewed 2876 times

I like having Ctrl and Alt on one side of the spacebar, but equally I want a Fn easily reachable with my left hand...the Win on the right isn't ideal, but it's the best compromise I can think of. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

What about this for the numpad - the Alt will allow me to enter ASCII codes etc one-handed, and the Fn for symmetry and one-handed access to the fn layer (also useful if I ever end up on OSX, I guess...).

numpad.png (13.36 KiB) Viewed 2873 times

[Plasmodium]

Also, a quick question about KRO/ghosting with a matrix on a Teensy (if anyone is looking at this thread...):
I hear terms like 2/6/NKRO and ghosting being thrown around a lot where keyboards are concerned - as I understand it, they concern the ability to register multiple keystrokes at once (correct?). What are the 'KRO' capabilities of a typical hand-wired matrix keyboard using a Teensy controller? Or is it in the software?

[flabbergast]

Diodes => no ghosting (meaning it wouldn't happen that a switch would appear "pressed" because some other switches around it are pressed).

The controller is then able to sense even all the switches at the same time, no restriction there. The "KRO" restrictions come from the communication between the keyboard and the PC. The "ordinary" USB keyboard protocol only allows for 6 keys to be sent at a time, thus 6KRO. Most newer systems understand another USB keyboard protocol, which is something like 64KRO or 128KRO, not sure - these usually go as "NKRO". (The only problem is that BIOSes and EFIs don't speak this protocol, so some NKRO keyboards don't work in early boot.)

EDIT: Forgot to say: most Teensy firmwares (TMK, Soarer controller, EasyAVR) speak also NKRO protocol.

[Plasmodium]

Thanks for that. I'm a bit of an electronics noob! And though my family would call me a techie, I know only a little about coding... But all of that is helpful info.

[Plasmodium]

Any thoughts on how to convert 2u POS keys to fit a standard mount? I picked up some leftovers up from 7bit just to fill the numpad, but the 2u keys I got were POS ones (ie, they have 2 stems, not the 3 required for a standard stabilised mount).

The easiest way would be to knock out the stems and glue them back in in the right place (I even got an extra key so I have enough stems, as I had a feeling this might happen!) - is there an easy/known way to do this? Or will it most likely just break the keys?

[Edit]: anyone know what set this key was made for? It's a big ol' tall SA profile - 7bit threw it in as an extra. (Apologies for the potato-some picture)

IMG_20151007_233459~2.jpg (256.08 KiB) Viewed 2783 times

[Plasmodium]

So...plate cutting delayed for another 2 weeks. I'm, a bit disappointed, but it's being cut for free (I supply materials) by some guys who run a machine lab in the local library on a voluntary basis, so I can't really complain. Also, none of them are real CNC experts, so I'd rather they have it all figured out than use my project as a test bed!

On the other hand, they were able to very quickly produce the acrylic layers (maybe temporary ones...) out of some 3mm green acrylic they had lying around. I may invest in a sheet of 5mm black or white (or other neutral colour) for the final version, but these are good for now! (Picture in next post)

[Plasmodium]

Captain PotatoPic to the rescue! (I don't even own a camera, so apologies for trampling roughshod over the artistic sensibilities of those who take pride in taking good pictures!)

IMG_20151014_134119.jpg (884.62 KiB) Viewed 2733 times