Introduction

[nicstreet]

Evening All, been an observer now for a while but think now is an appropriate time to get more involved. I've had a Filco TKL MJ2 (MX Browns) for 18 months and have been quite satisfied. Earlier in the summer I purchased a Microsoft Surface Pro 3 and started to use this as a daily driver. However the Type-cover keyboard is gash at best and I started to lug my MJ2 around.

I figured a smaller keyboard would be more transportable so a couple of weeks back picked up a Pok3r (MX Clears). I love the switches and the board itself is great, however, I miss dedicated cursor keys much more than I thought so started looking for a middle-of-the-road board (60%+cursor). It seems the Leopold FC660m is a likely candidate but I can only seem to find these in MX Browns.

I've investigated getting this and swapping the switches but thought I'd ask the wider community if there are any other 60%ish boards with cursors and MX Clears. Failing that some tips on soldering/desoldering will probably be more appropriate.

Thanks all

Nic

p.s. Looking at the Round 5+ keycaps, is this still open or am I mis-reading the post?

[Muirium]

Hey, welcome to DT.

The Filco Minila is worth a look. Especially in its Bluetooth version: the Minila Air. Probably the best battery life in a Bluetooth mech.

http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.ph ... rd-review/

The downsides: apparently no MX Clear option (boo!) and the layout is quite strange, so it might be a bit fiddly with your Round 5 purchase to come…

Yes, 7bit's group buys are always open. I'll let others try to explain his baffling process. I've done it enough times! And the man himself is on holiday so it gets een weirder…

[hypkx]

The kbt pure pro has also dedicted arrow keys.
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/in ... tail&p=636
No mx clears, but you can swap the switches easy to clears without soldering because the switches are PCB mounted.
If the switches are PCB mounted you can open the switches and swap the spring and slider.

[nicstreet]

Thanks Guys, I'd looked at the Minila as its in-stock and available from Keyboardco.com but as mentioned the deviation on keysizes may cause some issues with aftermarket caps.

KBT Pure Pro would be an option but as with most boards, finding somewhere where they are "in stock" seems impossible.

I think I'll pick up the Leopold with Browns and run with it for a while. I've been using Browns on my Filco and thought they were great until I used the Clears.

[zslane]

I usually find myself taking the path of least resistance, which is to say going with the product that involves the fewest compromises. In this case, if it were me, I'd stick with the Pok3r and just get accustomed to holding down Caps Lock while navigating with IJKL. Because while that isn't ideal, it is close enough to using dedicated arrow keys that not having to make any other compromises (in terms of switches or layout) makes it the clear winner.

[Muirium]

Good point. Learning to love a straight 60% will save you trouble in the long run. Every keycap GB out there will fit a Poker just as easily as your TKL Filco. That makes things so much easier than having to compromise with weird right Shifts and all the rest of the fallout that happens when you cram arrow keys at the right side of a 60%.

I'm a huge 60% fan, but I must admit that I've never used one with a standard Poker-style layout. My 60s are HHKB-style, with, yes, a strange right Shift! While every modern MX keyset out there is guaranteed to work on a Poker, most GBs cater to the HHKB layout as well, being quite popular in its own right. The benefit of HHKB layout is some sublime ergonomics that I always try to find in every other board I use. Holding down Caps Lock and using WASD (let alone needing both hands for IJKL) is a harder call than the HHKB's excellent, single handed navigation layer. But as you already have the Poker, you're all set to learn and master it already.

I find the land between 60% and full TKL is full of awkward compromise. But some people do swear by their "65%" keyboards. Just as some of us are mad for straight 60%. You need to find your answer for yourself.

[zslane]

You pretty much hit it point on, Muirium. To be honest, though, I am really not what anyone would consider a 60% guy. I dislike anything that isn't full ANSI, and as 60%ers go, the Pok3r is as close to matching a standard ANSI layout as I'm going to find.

Now, since I only use my Pok3r with an iPad, I don't need full keyboard functionality. I don't really miss the other 40% except for cursor navigation (because navigating around an iPad's text edit box with touches on the glass drives me insane). Having to use FN+IJKL for cursor navigation is essentially the only operational compromise I have to make in actual practice, and the only unusual part of that is holding down FN. Given all the other layout benefits of the Pok3r, that one compromise is easy to accept. It's just that finding a 1.75u FN key is nearly impossible (icon mods to the rescue!).

I suppose if I were nutters enough to try and use a 60%er for normal use with a full-on desktop computer, then other ergonomic concerns might become important to me. Luckily I am not afflicted with that impulse.

[Muirium]

I use the arrow keys very heavily indeed. I work in words, and that means constant editing. I loathe using the mouse, or any other pointing device, when my hands are already on the highest bandwidth input device I have. And editing means selections, which means chords. So a 60% is very little overhead in that regard. I'm just as fast rearranging sentences on my HHKB as I am my Realforce.

I know many keyboard aficionados apparently hate pressing more than one key at a time, and like a vast array of single key macros and special characters at their disposal. I definitely don't want that myself, but I can put myself in their place if I imagine I only had a single finger on each hand…

[zslane]

I really only do heavy typing in two contexts: writing code and writing forum posts.

I only write code on full ANSI keyboards connected to desktop computers. I write a lot of forum posts with my iPad, but since writing forum posts rarely demands much in the way of complex editing, a Pok3r is more than adequate. However, there are times I wish I had a mouse connected to this thing for drag-selecting large blocks of text. There was a time when Emacs key bindings were deeply embedded in muscle memory, but those days are gone, and mouse-selecting is what I'm used to now.

For anyone crazy enough to use a 60%er in a full-keyboard context, I can't offer much advice except maybe seek therapy. But if you're only going to use one in a limited context (like with a tablet), as befits its size, then I think a Pok3r is the best choice; just flip DIP switch 3 on and use Caps Lock to chord with IJKL for cursor navigation (and SDF if you find a need to control volume a lot) and rejoice in the beautiful ANSI-ness of the rest of the board!

[webwit]

You're doing it wrong. The HHKB was created by an Emacs user. Has all the keys in range without leaving the home row.

[Muirium]

I love the weak sauce arguments fullsizers deploy. "You can't do what you're already doing! You need a numpad and a dial a pizza macro block for that!" Uh huh.

[zslane]

I don't use Emacs much anymore, not even for writing code (which I don't do on a 60% keyboard anyway). And I certainly don't write forum posts with Emacs. The HHKB was created for use cases other than mine.

[Muirium]

I don't emacs (or vim) either. But the HHKB function layer enables everything a TKL can do for me. And I do prefer it.

Did we get that interview with Prof. Wada yet? Did he design the function layer? And if not, what does he think of it?

[zslane]

I love the weak sauce arguments fullsizers deploy. "You can't do what you're already doing! You need a numpad and a dial a pizza macro block for that!" Uh huh.

Oh, my arguments are even weaker than that. I use the numpad when doing real work just enough to want one on hand, but even more than that, I love my keycaps so much I want to see as many of them as possible on a (standard) keyboard. Eliminating the numpad takes away 17 beautiful keycaps from my sight, which fills me with great sadness. Believe me, as much as I enjoy typing on these Granite caps, it fills me with deep sorrow to see only 61 of them.

[Muirium]

I can see a 122 key battleship in your future. Or maybe even a Hyper7.

May Atlas have mercy on your soul.

[zslane]

I knew you'd say something like that, which is why I was careful to put "standard" in there (parenthetical though it was). To me, standard today means ANSI (or ISO if you're of that bent). However, had the ANSI standard evolved into a 122-key layout instead of a 104-key layout, then I'd be just fine with those extra 18 keys. Just the same, fitting any keyboard described as a battleship (or aircraft carrier, as the wonderful AEK/II was) into my existing work spaces would be unpleasant. The narrow-bevel footprint of the Filco Majestouch-2 is ideal for me.

[Muirium]

You're needlessly deploying fewer superfluous caps than a 122 would allow. The horror!

I like that the AEK was considered a battleship in its day. The development names for the two models were (the aircraft carriers) Nimitz and Saratoga, if I remember. But the AEK is a mere full size! That's plenty of a battleship for me, and indeed the Mac users of the day, who were already used to compacts. The original Mac (the only one Steve Jobs had input on before he was thrown out in 1985) even had a 60% keyboard. The HHKB owes everything to its design!

Once you're used to 60%s, even TKLs feel like boats of war. Indeed, Neophyte says the HHKB even seems absurdly large to him now he's built his 40%…

I wonder.

[Hypersphere]

@nicstreet: I started with a full-size IBM Model M, but some time ago I wanted to sample the offerings of contemporary keyboards and to look at something smaller. I got a Filco Majestouch2 Ninja with mx blues and put a nice set of more conventional keycaps on it. Later, I tried the Leopold FC660M with mx blues, but by this time I realized I didn't really like Cherry mx switches.

I liked the idea of a 65% keyboard -- essentially a standard layout 60% with arrow keys, so I tried the FC660C. Topre switches were much more pleasant to use than Cherry switches, but the 65% layout just didn't feel quite right.

Finally, after being put off by the layout, I gave the HHKB Pro 2 a try, and I was instantly hooked. Along the way, I have tried other form factors, including so-called 75% boards, but now I tend to use either the HHKB Pro 2 or a RF87U. Overall, my favorite board is the HHKB Pro 2. I like my RF87U, but now when I use a TKL board, I am thrown off by the asymmetry.

Another 60% board that I like is the KBP V60MTS-C. There are V60s with Cherry and Gateron switches, but the one I like has Matias Click switches.

If you don't mind a hybrid layout and you want a 60%-ish board with arrow keys, you might consider picking up a vintage board such as a Suntouch Jr or Ortek MCK-84. Some of these have doubleshot keycaps and Alps-variety switches.

[zslane]

The original Mac keyboard is like the original Apple I/II keyboard, which is like the original IBM PC keyboard, which is like the AEK in that they are all "vintage" in one way or another, which is to say non-standard by today's definition. The only thing I like in vintage form are spherical keycaps, and only to appreciate for their aesthetics (they are useless on any of the boards I prefer).

My sole objective when getting into mechanical keyboards, and joining this community, was to marry the best (non-vintage) spherical keycaps I could find with the best (non-vintage) full ANSI keyboards I could find (I like brand new, or "like new" at the very least). Everything else might as well not even exist as far as I'm concerned. The purchase of Pok3rs for my iPad was a completely unforseen event, and arose out of my newly acquired desire to put mechanicals under my fingers in every possible typing context. But even there, the Pok3r is as close to the 104-key ANSI standard as I could find for a 60%er. Plus--and I can't stress this enough--its MX switches allow me to use my beloved DSA and SA keycaps. Nevertheless, while those missing 43 keys aren't critical to my usage patterns with the iPad, their absence does feel like I'm missing a limb.

[zslane]

I will say this about battleship cases, however. When trying to capture the essence of the look of vintage keyboards like the Space Cadet, the Honeywell, or a Dasher (to name just three), large (off-white) cases do have a certain undeniable flare. The thing is, I'm not aware of any ANSI-standard 104-key boards with cases made in, say, the Model M style. The Cherry G80-3000 is a modern ANSI keyboard with a large-ish case, but it has a very modern streamlined look rather than a vintage battleship look. Even a re-purposed vintage Model M case (which I happen to own, strangely enough) wouldn't work since it can't accomodate a standard ANSI layout.

[Muirium]

The G80-3000 is plenty enough of a battleship for me:



As for your timeline: not quite the right order. The Apple II came out in 1977, the IBM PC in 1981 — but it had the XT keyboard layout, nothing like today's — then the Mac with its nifty little 60% in 1984. Things only began to coalesce into the layout you're thinking of with the Model M in 1985. The Apple Extended Keyboard of 1987 was heavily influenced by that (Jobs was out, and Jean-Louis Gassée was in) right down to the num lock LED: a function which did not exist on the Mac! And still doesn't to this day. Anyway, IBM's clout, as usual back then, made everyone gather around the Model M as the one true layout (albeit with ANSI, ISO and JIS flavours). Microsoft added Windows keys 10 years later, and that was that, in the PC world.

Meanwhile, Apple ditched numpads and navigation blocks in the PowerBook, and that's where I came in. My desktop keyboards are better for me than anything that's been put into a laptop since LCDs made them truly portable, but I don't need vastly more keys, simply better ones.

[zslane]

Oh, indeed, the G80-3000 is certainly ungainly enough to provoke thoughts of naval vessels, but it isn't as retro-looking in terms of its lines and bevels and chambers as a Model M case. Believe me, I detest the 1980s IBM keyboard aesthetic in general, but somehow a good set of SA keycaps has the magic power to make the Model M case look almost retro-chic.

For instance, what is this?

image.jpg (136.69 KiB) Viewed 4727 times

If it had a proper ANSI layout, it would be a strong contender for the kind of rig I have in mind.

(P.S., So so sorry for the thread derailment...)

[Muirium]

For instance, what is this?

I don't get why you think "winkeyless" layouts aren't ANSI. The ANSI ones are ANSI! That one's ISO, but with a 2.25u left Shift and the rest of it, they're as ANSI as your beloved fullsize moderns. The Windows key isn't the defining feature of ANSI vs ISO.

[scottc]

It's a G80-1000, the older brother of the G80-3000. http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_G80-1000

[Muirium]

Yup, note the faux-Model M curve around the side of the alphas, intended to look something like IBM's housing for an authentically curved backplate, beneath.

I prefer the 3000 style to the 1000. It's more honest to itself, and quite handsome in a simple way. If still far too bloody big for my liking!

That's why I got two of them, NIB. One's for the chop…

[zslane]

I use "ANSI" as a shortcut for "full 104-key ANSI" because I'm lazy and I hope people know what I mean. Maybe I can't get away with being so lazy around here...

Oh, and to be clear, I'm okay with 108-key ANSI wherein the extra four keys are above the numpad. Those extra keys are out of the way and don't disturb or displace the rest of the standard layout, so I have no objection to them. And, in fact, they sort of work to my advantage when it comes to my plans for the Space Cadet caps because I plan to put the roman numeral keys there. Moar Space Cadet keys = moar better keyboard, I say. But that's entirely unique to Space Cadet AFAIC.

However, fewer than the standard 104 is not acceptable to me (Pok3rs connected to my iPad notwithstanding). That's why Winkeyless, Tenkeyless, and all the other -less layouts < 100% full ANSI are dead to me.

[Muirium]

I use "ANSI" as a shortcut for "full 104-key ANSI" because I'm lazy and I hope people know what I mean. Maybe I can't get away with being so lazy around here...

Well, at least you don't call it "QWERTY layout" like every moron on Ebay…

I call it fullsize ANSI. Which is also a bit lazy, as it covers pre-Windows 95, classic 101 key Model Ms and the like, too. 104 key ANSI is probably what you want. No need to stipulate "full" there, and you even get to lift up and use your numpad! Hellooooooooooo over there!

[nicstreet]

Thanks all, advice taken on-board and I've scrapped plans for Leopold and swapped my Pok3r ISO for a Pok3r ANSI with clears in white rather than black. I'll spend a short amount of time each day practicing to ensure I get more proficient.

Anyone got any thoughts on Colemak/Dvorak layout? I'm curious to know if anyone has had any success with move from QWERTY? Seems a logical time to change if I have to retrain brain and muscle memory.

[Muirium]

Colemak is smarter. It has the same ergonomic advantages as Dvorak, and is just as present in every modern OS, but Colemak is designed to be easier to learn. Dvorak is wildly different. Colemak is a subtle optimisation of Qwerty instead.

That said, I find adaptation tough. I'm pretty flexible (I knew I'd love the HHKB and I found it no problem) but the alpha keys are so fundamental to touch typing that even Colemak is a big obstacle for me. It slows me down more than single handed thumb typing on the iPhone! I suspect mastering it is a big achievement with a nice payoff in the long run. But I haven't managed that myself.

ISO vs. ANSI is a walk in the park compared to that.