BOX switches

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zslane

11 Mar 2019, 17:53

Right. Stem thicknesses are documented as:

Flawed BOX stem: 1.32mm (too thick)
Cherry MX stem: 1.31mm (just right)
Fixed BOX stem: 1.30mm (a bit thin)

It's amazing what a difference of 0.01mm can make.

kailh01

12 Mar 2019, 07:30

jani80k wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 09:28
I ordered a Kailh Box Switch tester off of the KBDFans Website which arrived on Friday.
I can assure you that the Box Switches (one of every type there is except HAKO) in the tester were all fine.
I put some Cherry MX Browns next to them and tested them with the provided clear keycaps that come with the switch tester.
The keycaps fit the Box Switch stems more loosely than the MX Browns and Clears which proves that the Box Switches now have thinner stems than Cherry MX Switches which is a good thing.
This means that Re-Tooled Box Switches not only will not crack your keycaps anymore, they are far from it now, being not as thick as standard Cherry MX Stems.
I am posting this so people on the internet can read it in case they are unsure whether new Box Switches are safe now, like I was. Go for them!

thanks for your kindl help,(sorry for long time not login this web,my account has some problems).
yep.we've resolved the issue in the last year,we also recalled the old version box switch from all round the world's retailers.

We cared about your guys opinions and we do wanna get more better.

User avatar
ZedTheMan

12 Mar 2019, 23:08

kailh01 wrote:
12 Mar 2019, 07:30
jani80k wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 09:28
I ordered a Kailh Box Switch tester off of the KBDFans Website which arrived on Friday.
I can assure you that the Box Switches (one of every type there is except HAKO) in the tester were all fine.
I put some Cherry MX Browns next to them and tested them with the provided clear keycaps that come with the switch tester.
The keycaps fit the Box Switch stems more loosely than the MX Browns and Clears which proves that the Box Switches now have thinner stems than Cherry MX Switches which is a good thing.
This means that Re-Tooled Box Switches not only will not crack your keycaps anymore, they are far from it now, being not as thick as standard Cherry MX Stems.
I am posting this so people on the internet can read it in case they are unsure whether new Box Switches are safe now, like I was. Go for them!

thanks for your kindl help,(sorry for long time not login this web,my account has some problems).
yep.we've resolved the issue in the last year,we also recalled the old version box switch from all round the world's retailers.

We cared about your guys opinions and we do wanna get more better.

Hey, Kailh?

Are there any plans to revise BOX Royal switches so that they do not develop a click once they are well used?

kailh01

13 Mar 2019, 01:27

Hello The box royal is exclusive by Novelkeys,so if there has any problem,you guys need to feedback the problem to them,because the right of changing belongs to them.


Thanks

User avatar
abrahamstechnology

13 Mar 2019, 02:35

Hi everyone, I forgot to update this, but I am now completely sure the Wyse's caps were likely ruined by the retrobriting, not the switches (the plastic on the cap itself cracks very easily on this set that I have since got rid of) and new Tai-Hao caps have no damage when put on the same switches.

User avatar
jani80k

13 Mar 2019, 11:46

ZedTheMan wrote:
12 Mar 2019, 23:08
kailh01 wrote:
12 Mar 2019, 07:30
jani80k wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 09:28
I ordered a Kailh Box Switch tester off of the KBDFans Website which arrived on Friday.
I can assure you that the Box Switches (one of every type there is except HAKO) in the tester were all fine.
I put some Cherry MX Browns next to them and tested them with the provided clear keycaps that come with the switch tester.
The keycaps fit the Box Switch stems more loosely than the MX Browns and Clears which proves that the Box Switches now have thinner stems than Cherry MX Switches which is a good thing.
This means that Re-Tooled Box Switches not only will not crack your keycaps anymore, they are far from it now, being not as thick as standard Cherry MX Stems.
I am posting this so people on the internet can read it in case they are unsure whether new Box Switches are safe now, like I was. Go for them!

thanks for your kindl help,(sorry for long time not login this web,my account has some problems).
yep.we've resolved the issue in the last year,we also recalled the old version box switch from all round the world's retailers.

We cared about your guys opinions and we do wanna get more better.

Hey, Kailh?

Are there any plans to revise BOX Royal switches so that they do not develop a click once they are well used?
The Box Royal on the switch tester I received last week from KBDFans was perfectly fine.

davkol

13 Mar 2019, 13:48

jani80k wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:46
ZedTheMan wrote:
12 Mar 2019, 23:08
once they are well used
switch tester I received last week
WTF

User avatar
jani80k

13 Mar 2019, 14:24

davkol wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:48
jani80k wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:46
ZedTheMan wrote:
12 Mar 2019, 23:08
once they are well used
switch tester I received last week
WTF
Sorry, I did not read well enough. I assumed we are talking about the thread title.
The question would have been worth a new topic because I am interested in that, too. ;)
Maybe a Mod can do that for us...
My findings on this issue (I disassembled the Box Royal) are that they are well lubed and the clicking starts, when the lube wears off. It will be difficult to find a lube that won't migrate over time.

User avatar
ZedTheMan

13 Mar 2019, 16:27

jani80k wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 14:24
davkol wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:48
jani80k wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:46

switch tester I received last week
WTF
Sorry, I did not read well enough. I assumed we are talking about the thread title.
The question would have been worth a new topic because I am interested in that, too. ;)
Maybe a Mod can do that for us...
My findings on this issue (I disassembled the Box Royal) are that they are well lubed and the clicking starts, when the lube wears off. It will be difficult to find a lube that won't migrate over time.
Do you think that a heavy dry lubricant could last? Or maybe if the plastic was made of that Teflon infused stuff that Dupont makes?

User avatar
jani80k

13 Mar 2019, 16:51

ZedTheMan wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 16:27
Do you think that a heavy dry lubricant could last? Or maybe if the plastic was made of that Teflon infused stuff that Dupont makes?
I think we should ask this question to Mike from Novelkeys. As I have read on their website, Novelkeys now owns the tooling for the BOX Switches. Maybe to make sure that no one will tamper with the stem size again ;)

I think, it is safe to say, the tooling is still in China though.

I am not a switch engineer so I don't know the answer to your question whether the type of lube would work but it would be good to know if Novelkeys is aware of this issue and working on it...

FYI - I just contacted Novelkeys via their website and asked them to reply to this thread.

User avatar
jani80k

14 Mar 2019, 20:55

I got a reply and you might not like the answer...
Novelkeys wrote:Hi there,

This is actually something that happens to BOX Brown, BOX Burnt Orange, and BOX Royals over time. I have talked to Kaihua about this before, and there is no plans to make any changes. Kaihua did confirm that this happens over time with the wearing of the lube, but that it does not change the function of the switch.

Thanks,

Mike
So, I guess, if you want to enjoy the overwhelming tactility of Box Royals at the moment, you must best use them in a hot-swappable Kit so you can relube them in case they start clicking, if that makes sense. :?

By the way, when I disassembled some of the switches from my tester, I found out that in Kailh Copper Speed Switches the metal leaves which are pushed back by the slider extend further into the housing than those of other switches. I inserted an MX Clear stem into a Kailh Speed Copper housing and the result was almost better than Box Royals. Just saying.

User avatar
Chyros

14 Mar 2019, 21:28

I wish people would just stop fucking about with the notches to generate tactility. As I noted in my review of the BOX Royals, they feel good, it's just crazy that they had to resort to a bump THIS big in order to make a notch switch actually feel tactile. And now, as a side effect, they can't keep quiet. Can't we just drop the stupid notches?!

User avatar
ZedTheMan

14 Mar 2019, 23:37

Chyros wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 21:28
I wish people would just stop fucking about with the notches to generate tactility. As I noted in my review of the BOX Royals, they feel good, it's just crazy that they had to resort to a bump THIS big in order to make a notch switch actually feel tactile. And now, as a side effect, they can't keep quiet. Can't we just drop the stupid notches?!
Bring back the leaf springs, I say!

User avatar
jani80k

15 Mar 2019, 10:09

Chyros wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 21:28
I wish people would just stop fucking about with the notches to generate tactility. As I noted in my review of the BOX Royals, they feel good, it's just crazy that they had to resort to a bump THIS big in order to make a notch switch actually feel tactile. And now, as a side effect, they can't keep quiet. Can't we just drop the stupid notches?!
Probably most of us would still take Box Royals over most "tactile" MX mount compatible switches out there, despite the muted clicking that might eventually develop over time, just because there are not that many alternatives, especially at this price point.

I think the really interesting thing to learn from this is that lube in switches can migrate because the switch works as expected as long as the lube is in place.
The linear Box Switches in my Switch testers are far more smooth than even the retooled Cherry switches. When I opened them, they are clearly lubed. If the smoothness is also a result of the lube, this could mean they will become less smooth over time. But to what extent? Moreover, this could happen with any switch - also the ones that we lube ourselves. Krytox 205 Grade 0 being "non-migrating" only means it's not runny like e.g. 105. This does not mean it is resilient to the mechanical forces of thousands of keypresses. Maybe we shouldn't only question notches but also lubing - or at least lower our expectations of what lubing can do. Just thinking out loud.

User avatar
zrrion

15 Mar 2019, 16:05

A skcm style leaf in an MX compatible switch would be a dream. I like MX tactility well enough, but the requirement for keeping the weight/tactility ratio in a particular range prevents the light weight high tactility that I want from a switch.

I would think that a click bar could be made to hook under a slider in a similar way to a leaf allowing tactility to be effected by both weight of the bar and by the shape of the tooth as well as not blocking light from an led.

User avatar
jani80k

18 Mar 2019, 12:33

EDIT: Started a new topic, this does not belong here.

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scottc

01 May 2019, 15:31

samuelcable wrote:
01 May 2019, 14:29
What is that link? Doesn't look safe
spam

samuelcable

01 May 2019, 15:43

Chyros wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 21:28
I wish people would just stop fucking about with the notches to generate tactility. As I noted in my review of the BOX Royals, they feel good, it's just crazy that they had to resort to a bump THIS big in order to make a notch switch actually feel tactile. And now, as a side effect, they can't keep quiet. Can't we just drop the stupid notches?!
You go on this topic time after time, I've tried both mx clears and orange Alps, brown Alps, ect and both feel 'actually tactile' in my opinion. Sure the design isn't optimal but I think the end result of mx clears feels just as good as tactile Alps as a tactile switch. There's still a big tactile bump that shows you when you actuated it. Also I'd argue that brown Alps are badly designed too, even if they feel good. I mean a fake switch plate to generate tactility is just as dumb as a notch in my opinion but both feel good to me. Guess it's an opinion thing though, considering you said in a video that mx clears felt absolutely linear. Which I don't get, I find the bump to be huge on them

User avatar
StrangerInTheAlps

10 May 2019, 03:08

samuelcable wrote:
01 May 2019, 15:43
You go on this topic time after time, I've tried both mx clears and orange Alps, brown Alps, ect and both feel 'actually tactile' in my opinion. Sure the design isn't optimal but I think the end result of mx clears feels just as good as tactile Alps as a tactile switch. There's still a big tactile bump that shows you when you actuated it. Also I'd argue that brown Alps are badly designed too, even if they feel good. I mean a fake switch plate to generate tactility is just as dumb as a notch in my opinion but both feel good to me. Guess it's an opinion thing though, considering you said in a video that mx clears felt absolutely linear. Which I don't get, I find the bump to be huge on them
I think the problem is "bump" isn't really the right word, at least not without qualifying or quantifying it (same as if you are driving on a bad road; there are gentle bumps that you wouldn't feel in a luxury car, and then there are monstrous, suspension destroyers that are still called "bumps").

To me, typing on Clears is like punching pillows. The type of feedback you get is dependent on the speed and force you use. I would definitely agree that they are tactile, regardless, but not sharp.

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