Alps Lubricant FOUND!

cheese

26 Apr 2021, 11:54

How come nobody is looking into the TB2501S?

Considering that 2583G cannot be found, feel as though it would be best to stick to Threebond as this was the known company for supplying the lube for Alps switches.

2500 series lube indicates on TB's website that "It prevents sulfurization and oxidation of electric contacts, and it stabilizes contact resistance at the contact point by preventing an increase in contact resistance due to periodic repetitive motion." <---- sounds pretty consistent with what an Alps switch needs, particularly around preventing contact resistance due to periodic repetitive motion.

Image

Whats confusing however is that recent TB brochures indicate slide switch is not suitable for the 2501S, but the wayback machine indicates it is 'available' for light load slide switches, and conditionally available for medium load slide switches. 1855/1856 as others have mentioned indicates its for vehicles, so why are we even considering 1855/1856? From looking at my own collection of Alps switches, the lube seems to have been sprayed on. I orderd TB2501S to see how it performs. Unfortunately I don't have a perfect NOS Alps board, so will post results on video to gather other people's opinions.

I did find it interesting that 2501S is considered a contact rejuvenation/restoration lubricant. According to TB's brochure, the 2500 series is the only application with slider switch mentioned (page 75), the 1855/1856 does not. https://threebond.com/wp-content/upload ... -LOCAL.pdf

I plan to spray it on a pad and dab it with a paintbrush and lube accordingly.

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NeK

26 Apr 2021, 12:36

tb-2501s.png
tb-2501s.png (66.27 KiB) Viewed 1129 times

Its (dynamic) viscocity is 0.55 Pa-s (Pascal per second), which it converts to 550 cP (CentiPoise). The greases that I am working with and are the only ones that do work have:

NyoGel 767A: Kinematic Viscosity 18185 cST (centiStoke) which with 0.87 Specific Gravity converts to (18185*0.87) = 15820,95 cP (CentiPoise)
OKS 477: Kinematic Viscosity 1600 cST (centiStoke) which with 0.87 Specific Gravity converts to (1600*0.87) = 1392 cP (CentiPoise)

550 cP is way too low to provide the necessary film strength that SKCM needs in order to overcome the binding and the stick-slip friction. So I am skeptical about it, I don't think that 2501s has any relation with the OG grease they used back then, but that's just my opinion. And nevertheless, ti would be great to try it and let us know the results. ;)

cheese

26 Apr 2021, 22:15

NeK wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 12:36
The greases that I am working with and are the only ones that do work have:
Forgive my bluntness here, but when you say 'and are the only ones that do work' <--- from my understanding its just you?
550 cP is way too low to provide the necessary film strength that SKCM needs in order to overcome the binding and the stick-slip friction.
afaik, there is no data sheet for the original TB2581P that the TB employee indicated. The closest one to it he indicated is the 2583G, which is currently difficult to find from my understanding.
I don't think that 2501s has any relation with the OG grease they used back then
There could be some similarity, considering the use cases for it provided in the earlier post. as far as i can tell, the slide switch availability is only indicated for the 2500 series TB oil/spray/grease.

Based on the posts thus far, the Nyogel 760G seems to be working well for some (ymmv based on the lube job ;) ) as it is closest to what Nye Lubricants has in replacement of the 2583G (per post history). Until we can get ahold of the 2583G, the 760G should be the lube of choice. I'm making this conclusion based on the post history summarized below.

* TB2581P was the original lube used for alps switches.
* TB2581P no longer manufactured, TB employee indicated TB2583G is most compatible
* TB2583G cannot be found anywhere, until someone can source it
* Poster asked Nye Lubricants which would be closest to TB2583G. Employee/rep indicated Nyogel 760G is most similar (specs found here on page 75 https://threebond.com/wp-content/upload ... -LOCAL.pdf)
* Another poster indicated Shin Etsu G-501 could be similar to TB2583G, but unable to find conclusive evidence, unless I'm missing something here. G-501 is also used as a 'sound dampener.' TB 2500 series lube "reduces contact resistance, thereby preventing noise and abrasion from sliding (scratching?), and has a cleaning effect that can remove adsorbates and wear debris attached to the contact surfaces'
* Until someone sources a complete data sheet for the TB2581P, we will never know the exact formula for the original alps switch lube. Maybe it is a trade secret after all, as even the TB2583G is lacking technical information.

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NeK

27 Apr 2021, 04:26

cheese wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 22:15

Forgive my bluntness here, but when you say 'and are the only ones that do work' <--- from my understanding its just you?
No, there are others that have confirmed that OKS 477 does work. Dont take this the wrong way, but did you actually read most of the posts in this thread?
550 cP is way too low to provide the necessary film strength that SKCM needs in order to overcome the binding and the stick-slip friction.
afaik, there is no data sheet for the original TB2581P that the TB employee indicated. The closest one to it he indicated is the 2583G, which is currently difficult to find from my understanding.
And? What that has to do with what I said? How does that influence my statement about 550 cP not being enough? Either way, it still stands, no matter if we have the datasheet of TB2581P or not. On the contrary, having no technical info about it whatsoever, should be enough proof that we know nothing about if the 2501s even vaguely relates to it. It could as well be closer to chlorine for washing the floors for all we know.
I don't think that 2501s has any relation with the OG grease they used back then
There could be some similarity, considering the use cases for it provided in the earlier post. as far as i can tell, the slide switch availability is only indicated for the 2500 series TB oil/spray/grease.
First of all the use cases descriptions in English that TB writes, are notorious for being grammatically weird, vague and unambiguous. And secondly, they state nothing about the properties of the product itself. It is just generic marketing text. Conclusions drawn from these are ungrounded and extremely unreliable. I would refrain from doing so. I only rely on reliable and relevant data about the product properties itself.
Based on the posts thus far, the Nyogel 760G seems to be working well for some (ymmv based on the lube job ;) ) as it is closest to what Nye Lubricants has in replacement of the 2583G (per post history). Until we can get ahold of the 2583G, the 760G should be the lube of choice.
Sadly, we dont actually know the first thing about TB2581P and we also do not know if and how 2583G relates to it. And on top of that we know not a single substantial thing about the last one. For instance what is its viscosity, what base oil and what thickener does it have. Without any of these, we are in complete darkness. It may as well be beer or yogurt.

The recommendation about the NG 760g is also not based on strong enough ground. It seems that whomever made it, didn't take into account the viscosity of TB2583G, the base oil and the thickener, simply because the information about the are missing. These are fundamental information about a grease. Don't just believe me, just do yourself a quick comparison between the TDS of 760G and the "specs" of TB2583G. Without the most important factor, the kinematic or dynamic viscosity, and also without knowing what kind of base oil and what thickener it uses, it is impossible to compare them and conclude if they are similar or not. Apples and oranges...
I'm making this conclusion based on the post history summarized below.

* TB2581P was the original lube used for alps switches.
* TB2581P no longer manufactured, TB employee indicated TB2583G is most compatible
* TB2583G cannot be found anywhere, until someone can source it
* Poster asked Nye Lubricants which would be closest to TB2583G. Employee/rep indicated Nyogel 760G is most similar (specs found here on page 75 https://threebond.com/wp-content/upload ... -LOCAL.pdf)
* Another poster indicated Shin Etsu G-501 could be similar to TB2583G, but unable to find conclusive evidence, unless I'm missing something here. G-501 is also used as a 'sound dampener.' TB 2500 series lube "reduces contact resistance, thereby preventing noise and abrasion from sliding (scratching?), and has a cleaning effect that can remove adsorbates and wear debris attached to the contact surfaces'
* Until someone sources a complete data sheet for the TB2581P, we will never know the exact formula for the original alps switch lube. Maybe it is a trade secret after all, as even the TB2583G is lacking technical information.
Some remarks about this list:

1) no mention about the actual trials I and others have done, including documented proofs (side by side and before and after videos). Why?
2) TB2581P probably was the OG lube based on that TB rep email. However, we know nothing about it, not even if it was a mass produced product, or something very special (read different) that TB made exclusively for ALPS switches. And may have no relation to the 25xx series at all.
3) shin etsu G501 was just a wild guess, based loosely on the relation of TB and shin etsu companies, the fact that they collaborated closely back then and a wild appearing patent that was found strictly based on the timeframe and that it mentions a lube formula. How all of these facts are related and how they are pointing to the ALPS lube, is yet to be found.
I actually did read the patent thoroughly, and I am glad that I did, because I learned some important and basic things about chemistry and Tribology. The patent describes a grease, with a Silica thickener and a hydrocarbon base oil of arbirtarily high viscosity. Way higher than 550cP of TB2501S, which btw we know nothing about its thickener and its base oil. So draw your own conclusions here.
4) returning to the description texts of those japaneae companies, the term "electrical contact resistence" is usually used to refer that the product has a low electrical resistance (in Ohms) so it is fine to be used with electrical contacts, because it doesn,t ihibit the flow of electricity between the contacts and thus does not lead to malfunctions.
However, even the mention of electrical contact and its low electrical resistance, directly states that it is made for electric conductive surfaces. I.e. metals. Plastics are the exact opposite, they are the worst electrical conductors. So going solely by their description, they are greases made for metalic electrical contacts and NOT for plastics. Which immediately excludes their use with the plastic stems and housings of ALPS.

So with the above, I seriously doubt that the 2501S has any relation or similarity to the OG lube.

PS. I would appreciate if you would refrain from implying that 760G didn't work for me because of my "lube job". I wouls happilly admit it if anyone could provide documented proof of 760G eliminating binding and stick-slip. Until then, please believe me that I did at least an adequate "lube job".

headphone_jack

27 Apr 2021, 04:53

NeK wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 22:15
I would appreciate if you would refrain from implying that 760G didn't work for me because of my "lube job". I wouls happilly admit it if anyone could provide documented proof of 760G eliminating binding and stick-slip. Until then, please believe me that I did at least an adequate "lube job".
Remember when it was validated and proved multiple times that Nyogel works only in extremely small quantities applied over the slider? From the videos and pictures I've seen of the lube job you did, you might as well have bathed the rails in the stuff. As far as I know you haven't even tried it since then adding the correct amount of Nyogel. Myself and many others have had pretty positive results from Nyogel, and while I still believe we can do better, to write it off as not working *at all* is just irresponsible in my opinion.

User avatar
NeK

27 Apr 2021, 08:36

headphone_jack wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 04:53
NeK wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 22:15
I would appreciate if you would refrain from implying that 760G didn't work for me because of my "lube job". I wouls happilly admit it if anyone could provide documented proof of 760G eliminating binding and stick-slip. Until then, please believe me that I did at least an adequate "lube job".
Remember when it was validated and proved multiple times that Nyogel works only in extremely small quantities applied over the slider? From the videos and pictures I've seen of the lube job you did, you might as well have bathed the rails in the stuff. As far as I know you haven't even tried it since then adding the correct amount of Nyogel. Myself and many others have had pretty positive results from Nyogel, and while I still believe we can do better, to write it off as not working *at all* is just irresponsible in my opinion.
You are the one not remembering well. I have since apllied it in many different ways in many different early SKCM that are pre-lubed and need lube. It still didn't work. No matter how extremely small quantities or applying techniques that I used. It consistently made them worse. Way worse for that matter.

I demonstrated this with several videos and pictures documenting in this thread that prove that not only it does not work, but it actually makes the switch bind so much that it literally takes a force of 1.5kg and more to press it.

So yeah, I remember well. You seem to forget about what happened next. You are still remembering the first try that I posted. Sorry but stop it please and try to remember the later ones too.

And how is that even possible? Can you give me a reasonable explanation? Even if you still believe that is caused by my "lube job" skills, how is even possible to make them bind 100 times more? I am really curious on hearing how you are explaining this, to understand how you think lubricants even work.

On the contrary I have demonstrated restoring a blue SKCM switch to a 10/10 condition using the right greases and comparing it SIDE BY SIDE to an OG 10/10 condition switch. More than once too. With different keyboards. Please stop bringing up something that you have stuck with in your mind and try to stay updated and follow what is going on in this thread before you post next time.

Also, I am still waiting for a video proof of *your* claim. That you clearly and undisputably show positive results with a before an after shot. And also demonstrating to us all, how putting insanely huge amounts of it makes the switch bind by a crazy amount instead.

Well, where is it? Do you not have a phone with a camera? If you dont I can send you one for free. Just do the video proof. I dare you.

It literally takes 5 minutes to do it. Why no one has done one? Are you afraid of something?

If you don't do it, then you are full of it and I will never even bother to talk with you again.

PS. I remember that you didnt even use it with proper early factory prelubed SKCM switches. You used it instead on those that have the stem made with the newer material. Well those do not even need lube at all. They are already made with a material that has lubricating peoperties builtin. You are comparing apples and oranges, no wonder why you don't believe it then.

headphone_jack

27 Apr 2021, 14:11

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 08:36
headphone_jack wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 04:53
NeK wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 22:15
I would appreciate if you would refrain from implying that 760G didn't work for me because of my "lube job". I wouls happilly admit it if anyone could provide documented proof of 760G eliminating binding and stick-slip. Until then, please believe me that I did at least an adequate "lube job".
Remember when it was validated and proved multiple times that Nyogel works only in extremely small quantities applied over the slider? From the videos and pictures I've seen of the lube job you did, you might as well have bathed the rails in the stuff. As far as I know you haven't even tried it since then adding the correct amount of Nyogel. Myself and many others have had pretty positive results from Nyogel, and while I still believe we can do better, to write it off as not working *at all* is just irresponsible in my opinion.
You are the one not remembering well. I have since apllied it in many different ways in many different early SKCM that are pre-lubed and need lube. It still didn't work. No matter how extremely small quantities or applying techniques that I used. It consistently made them worse. Way worse for that matter.

I demonstrated this with several videos and pictures documenting in this thread that prove that not only it does not work, but it actually makes the switch bind so much that it literally takes a force of 1.5kg and more to press it.

So yeah, I remember well. You seem to forget about what happened next. You are still remembering the first try that I posted. Sorry but stop it please and try to remember the later ones too.

And how is that even possible? Can you give me a reasonable explanation? Even if you still believe that is caused by my "lube job" skills, how is even possible to make them bind 100 times more? I am really curious on hearing how you are explaining this, to understand how you think lubricants even work.

On the contrary I have demonstrated restoring a blue SKCM switch to a 10/10 condition using the right greases and comparing it SIDE BY SIDE to an OG 10/10 condition switch. More than once too. With different keyboards. Please stop bringing up something that you have stuck with in your mind and try to stay updated and follow what is going on in this thread before you post next time.

Also, I am still waiting for a video proof of *your* claim. That you clearly and undisputably show positive results with a before an after shot. And also demonstrating to us all, how putting insanely huge amounts of it makes the switch bind by a crazy amount instead.

Well, where is it? Do you not have a phone with a camera? If you dont I can send you one for free. Just do the video proof. I dare you.

It literally takes 5 minutes to do it. Why no one has done one? Are you afraid of something?

If you don't do it, then you are full of it and I will never even bother to talk with you again.

PS. I remember that you didnt even use it with proper early factory prelubed SKCM switches. You used it instead on those that have the stem made with the newer material. Well those do not even need lube at all. They are already made with a material that has lubricating peoperties builtin. You are comparing apples and oranges, no wonder why you don't believe it then.
You may have done a lot of research into this, but that doesn't stop you from being a raging asshole.

User avatar
NeK

27 Apr 2021, 14:27

If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me

kelvinhall05

27 Apr 2021, 14:29

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:27
If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me
lmao imagine getting so worked up over switch lube

headphone_jack

27 Apr 2021, 14:36

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:27
If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me
Flame war? Attacks? I was explaining to you why it would be wrong to write off Nyogel and you wrote an essay about why everything I had ever said was invalid. Stop playing the victim here. Also "So be careful next time when you see me"...yeah. Big neckbeard vibes here. Thanks for confirming my theory.

User avatar
NeK

27 Apr 2021, 14:48

headphone_jack wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:36
NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:27
If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me
Flame war? Attacks? I was explaining to you why it would be wrong to write off Nyogel and you wrote an essay about why everything I had ever said was invalid. Stop playing the victim here. Also "So be careful next time when you see me"...yeah. Big neckbeard vibes here. Thanks for confirming my theory.
Yawn... do you have any more insults coming? This quickly got uninteresting already and I couldn't care any less at this point

headphone_jack

27 Apr 2021, 14:50

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:48
headphone_jack wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:36
NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:27
If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me
Flame war? Attacks? I was explaining to you why it would be wrong to write off Nyogel and you wrote an essay about why everything I had ever said was invalid. Stop playing the victim here. Also "So be careful next time when you see me"...yeah. Big neckbeard vibes here. Thanks for confirming my theory.
Yawn... do you have any more insults coming? This quickly got uninteresting already and I couldn't care any less at this point
I suggest to drop the badass act, because trust me, is *really* isn't a good look for you. I have no ill will towards you, I think you've done a lot of great work here. But you really need to stop being so much of a dick when people contradict you. Not trying to start any beef, just giving you advice.

User avatar
phwog_

27 Apr 2021, 16:20

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:27
If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me
cry about it.

andresteare

27 Apr 2021, 19:04

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 14:27
If being defensive of my time and effort that I put into this and not tolerating flaming attacks out from nowhere, trying to shit on it and turn this topic into a flame war, is considered an asshole move. Then, I am the biggest asshole that you have ever encountered. So be careful next time when you see me
Nek, you did a lot of research, testing, had great results and added a lot of value to this conversation, you proposed a good solution and that's great, we all appreciate it.
However the more solutions are proposed the better this research gets, all input is welcomed. Unfortunately till we have an actual chemist, specifically trybologist we can't call an ultimate solution or what specific specs determine exactly what we are looking for, we still have to look for a solution that is widely available, 767-477 is a solution, but getting OKS is hard if you don't live in Germany. And for god sake are we really fighting over a frigging switch lube?.

Now let's get back to the research, after checking multiple PAO greases (I literally downloaded and checked all TDS for PAO greases availabe un DuPont database, also on Chevron and Exxonmobile) it makes a lot of sense when it comes to dampening effects cause a really low viscosity solution wouldn't dampen an object so it is indeed needed for scratchy objects.
But I'm not really sure if it's THAT important when comes to lubrication, using the word lubrication as to say it makes a very slippery layer between objects that makes contacting objects go slide with less surface resistance. Viscosity is: The viscosity of a fluid is a measure of its resistance to deformation at a given rate. For liquids, it corresponds to the informal concept of "thickness"
but I'm not sure if that related to Friction coefficient. This doubt came to me after noting that I was able to find literally just 1 fluid with matching viscosity in Exxon and nothing in dupont, which doesn't makes sense, some company as big as DuPont surely have a solution targeting whatever application OKS-477 is aimed for. So for now I know that NLGI (consistensy) is important, Penetration and viscosity migh be really relevant, viscosity and base oil are important to determine if you can mix two lubricants. If anyone is 100% sure of what property is most important for "friction coefficient" it would be highly appreciated.

The only PAO based solutions that get closer to the Viscosity of OKS-477 make no mention of the NLGI grade so we have no idea if they're too thin to be mixed with Nyogel and I didn't find them any non-bulk way to buy them, by the way the formulas that match OKS-477 viscosity and base oil are Synfluid® mPAO 150 cSt from Chevron and SpectraSyn Elite 150 cst from Exxonmobil (they are probably the same thing).

All inputs are welcomed
Last edited by andresteare on 27 Apr 2021, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

cheese

27 Apr 2021, 19:31

NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 04:26
PS. I would appreciate if you would refrain from implying that 760G didn't work for me because of my "lube job". I wouls happilly admit it if anyone could provide documented proof of 760G eliminating binding and stick-slip. Until then, please believe me that I did at least an adequate "lube job".
The lube job with the emoji was in reference to a corny sexual innuendo joke I made, and had nothing to do with your lubing skills. I'm not sure why you're dying on a hill trying to force everyone to get on your hacky OKS 477 (difficult to obtain outside of Germany) and Nyogel 767A mix. You're deviating from the original quest to find the original lube used. You're also a definite buzzkill when it comes to a community driven quest to find this elusive elixir :P to restore alps to its original greatness.

Anyhow some updates regarding TB2583G, it is currently being requested by a reseller I am in contact with who will receive samples within the next month from Threebond. Hopefully by then a proper comparison can be done. I wasn't able to obtain the 2501S (its a general purpose product readily available in Japan only), due to shipping regulations.

User avatar
NeK

27 Apr 2021, 20:42

cheese wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 19:31
NeK wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 04:26
PS. I would appreciate if you would refrain from implying that 760G didn't work for me because of my "lube job". I wouls happilly admit it if anyone could provide documented proof of 760G eliminating binding and stick-slip. Until then, please believe me that I did at least an adequate "lube job".
The lube job with the emoji was in reference to a corny sexual innuendo joke I made, and had nothing to do with your lubing skills. I'm not sure why you're dying on a hill trying to force everyone to get on your hacky OKS 477 (difficult to obtain outside of Germany) and Nyogel 767A mix. You're deviating from the original quest to find the original lube used. You're also a definite buzzkill when it comes to a community driven quest to find this elusive elixir :P to restore alps to its original greatness.

Anyhow some updates regarding TB2583G, it is currently being requested by a reseller I am in contact with who will receive samples within the next month from Threebond. Hopefully by then a proper comparison can be done. I wasn't able to obtain the 2501S (its a general purpose product readily available in Japan only), due to shipping regulations.
How can I not be frustrated with all of these attacks and horrible posts lately? I logged in just the other day to DT discord and the amount of harassment that I got, without any provocation at all, by small children, was just stupifiyingly too much and non-stop. I mean, someone must have a really big problem with me for some fucking reason. I guess, I did got worked up a bit from that event.

I am terribly sorry that I misjudged the "lube job" phrase that you mentioned as an allusion to the horrible attack that I had endured some months ago, from the likes of the these same running around children, which are obviously still keep posting insults and harassing, even not 2 posts ago.

But that's OK I don't give a fuck at all about what those children say or do. I do give a fuck though when I see someone trying to go to a dead end, in my humble opinion, road, to find the mystical OG lube through the use of 2583G. It is only my opinion, which I wrote about, so I felt that I should give you the facts and numbers that are screaming "wrong lube". And that was my reply to you and despite that, I actually did told you to OK, at least try it and lets see if ti works. I am sorry, if that sounded weird, condenscending or something else.

Anyway, the subject matter of lubricants is too complicated and there always will be different (read wrong) opinions and possibly misunderstandings and flames. It is the nature of it, it is very controversial.

I will of course ignore those children completely, and I will try my best to help you and anyone else that actually wants to find the OG lube, or something equally good. The topic still stands and the quest is going. I have one contender which I think (and I bet) that is by far the best. Trust me when I say that I have no issues, with anyone trying to find something better, or even the real OG. So if 2583G works too, then I'll be really amazed, and I truly do wish it would, and I do wish to be better than what I have come up with. ;)

User avatar
NeK

27 Apr 2021, 21:28

andresteare wrote:
27 Apr 2021, 19:04
Nek, you did a lot of research, testing, had great results and added a lot of value to this conversation, you proposed a good solution and that's great, we all appreciate it.
However the more solutions are proposed the better this research gets, all input is welcomed. Unfortunately till we have an actual chemist, specifically trybologist we can't call an ultimate solution or what specific specs determine exactly what we are looking for, we still have to look for a solution that is widely available, 767-477 is a solution, but getting OKS is hard if you don't live in Germany. And for god sake are we really fighting over a frigging switch lube?.
Of course you are right. I got worked up these days by all these unprovoked attacks (check my previous post) which made me easily triggered and I misunderstood a simple phrase. Anyway lets move on, it doesn't worth it, lets forget about it.
Now let's get back to the research, after checking multiple PAO greases (I literally downloaded and checked all TDS for PAO greases availabe un DuPont database, also on Chevron and Exxonmobile) it makes a lot of sense when it comes to dampening effects cause a really low viscosity solution wouldn't dampen an object so it is indeed needed for scratchy objects.
But I'm not really sure if it's THAT important when comes to lubrication, using the word lubrication as to say it makes a very slippery layer between objects that makes contacting objects go slide with less surface resistance. Viscosity is: The viscosity of a fluid is a measure of its resistance to deformation at a given rate. For liquids, it corresponds to the informal concept of "thickness"
but I'm not sure if that related to Friction coefficient. This doubt came to me after noting that I was able to find literally just 1 fluid with matching viscosity in Exxon and nothing in dupont, which doesn't makes sense, some company as big as DuPont surely have a solution targeting whatever application OKS-477 is aimed for. So for now I know that NLGI (consistensy) is important, Penetration and viscosity migh be really relevant, viscosity and base oil are important to determine if you can mix two lubricants. If anyone is 100% sure of what property is most important for "friction coefficient" it would be highly appreciated.

The only PAO based solutions that get closer to the Viscosity of OKS-477 make no mention of the NLGI grade so we have no idea if they're too thin to be mixed with Nyogel and I didn't find them any non-bulk way to buy them, by the way the formulas that match OKS-477 viscosity and base oil are Synfluid® mPAO 150 cSt from Chevron and SpectraSyn Elite 150 cst from Exxonmobil (they are probably the same thing).

All inputs are welcomed
Let me say that your post was such a refreshing change. Finally someone that actually cares about this and wants to do actual research. You can be sure that I will help you as much as I can. ;)

Now about the PAO greases: some weeks ago, I too, had contacted via email several US chemical companies including chemco and chevron IIRC, if they have something similar to OKS 477 (gave all of them the TDS). This was to help someone else (ZedTheMan member), that lives in the US to find something equivalent to it. But disappointingly all of them replied that they do not.

I am amazed as you are, I though that those companies could and would produce anything. However I concluded that they probably don't have a product that is mass produced with these properties, but if you go and order as industrial customer I'm sure they will produce anything you want.

Anyway, I contacted OKS and asked where someone can buy OKS 477 in the US and they pointed me to a US distributor which even gave me an oficial price quote. Sadly, they take orders of 10 items or more, so despite not being terribly expensive (I am looking at you NG 744VH), it is prohibitive for one person. ZedTheMan that wants to get hold of one, said that he would look around if there is interest to make a group buy. Maybe you should get in touch with him and maybe others and put this in motion? Apart from that, I am willing to actually send you a small quantity (no charge of course) via mail if you want to try it. ;)

Apart from that, here is what I know so far: Viscosity of the base oil is by far the most important factor for lubricants which makes a lube to actually lubricate and work or not. This is what every tribology article that I read, have stated and emphasized. Next comes the Thickener (for greases) and its properties, like its penetration (that which NLGI refers to as consistency). The thickener acts as a sponge, holding the oil inside it and when it gets pressured, it releases it and then it reabsorbs it. It also plays a role in how well the grease will stay put on the surfaces, under various conditions and that it will not deteriorate with time (oil separation) and, as with the base oil itself, how compatible it is with the surfaces (e.g., it is plastics safe, or corossion preventing, or low electrical resistance etc).

But the number one thing that is needed to get right first, is the viscosity of the base oil. It must be viscous enough for the use case at hand, that will keep the sliding/rolling surfaces from ever touching eachother.

The whole point of lubrication is these two things:
1. keep the surfaces from ever getting in contact at all times
2. have those surfaces slide on the base oil, as fast and as effortlessly as possible (to minimize energy and maximize output)

So for the #1, the oil must, as it is released from the thickener, gets in between the surfaces and fills in all their microasperities, forming a thin film that separates completely the two surfaces and prevent them from ever getting in contact, at all times. For if the surfaces do get in contact at any point, then horrible friction between them occurs, and they slow down, wasting energy and lowering their output. And on top of that, they actually scratch each other and that deteriorates them in time, in many ways.

Now what causes the surfaces to get in contact? The Load applied to them, i.e., the pressure they get from either gravity or from something else, that pushes them together. In some use cases a very light viscosity oil would be enough, because they may have almost no load between the surfaces, so it suffices to use a base oil, being just enough lightly viscous that will keep the surfaces separate while they slide on the oil as fast as possible.

On other cases though, the Load could be very high, e.g., big heavy crates sliding on a floor, so a "light" oil will not be able to stay between them and will spread and just drop out. So for these, the oil must be much more viscous, which means stronger, heavier and more difficult to penetrate and spread apart. So as the load goes up, the higher the viscosity of the oil is must be.

The rest of the properties are secondary and complimentary at best, they are there for other reasons, besides the actual lubrication job. They are there to prevent for instance, the corrossion or oxidation of the surfaces in time, or to make the thickener stay put better under specific conditions (humidity, temperature etc), and for other reasons, "unrelated" to the main function of the lubricant itself.

About the Coefficient of Friction that you mention, yes it is important, however not anywhere near as important as the #1 thing above. It is related to the #2 actually. The CoF just gives you a ballpark number, of how much effort and energy it will take to move around (slide) the surfaces, (0.1 CoF simply means, that it will take about 10% of the Load/weight, in push force to make them move and slide, 0.2 takes about 20% and so on). However, this is important after the #1 is fulfilled, because if #1 is not fulfilled, then it doesn't matter what ever CoF the lube is rated at, the lube will simply not work and the surfaces will touch and rub each other, sending the CoF right down the drain.

What I am trying to say here, is that the CoF is not as relevant for switches as you might think it is. You can control the force of the switch just by the spring used, you don't really care if the CoF of the lube is 0.1 or 0.01, all you want is to to make the switch have a particular pressing force e.g., 50g. So a lube with 0.1 CoF, will just need a stronger lighter spring, where a lube with 0.01 will need a lighter stronger spring (updated because I got those two backwards). It's not a big deal, you can't make it work as intended using these other methods.

These are the basics that I know of. I too would like a real tribologist to come and give us his or her input, but as far as I know, those fundamentals are the consensus of all and no one doubts them. It is all the secondary stuff that makes tribology so complicated, but we can almost ignore most of them once we have the basics nailed down.

my two cents and sorry for making this last fuzz.

andresteare

28 Apr 2021, 01:09

Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®
Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png
Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png (206.82 KiB) Viewed 741 times
Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
Attachments
Technical_Data_Sheet_Silicone_Lubricating_Grease.pdf
(216.36 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

micmil

28 Apr 2021, 01:56

This thread is quite possibly the most internet thing ever. For better and worse.

User avatar
Compgeke

28 Apr 2021, 02:37

micmil wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:56
This thread is quite possibly the most internet thing ever. For better and worse.
Y'all too online.
Image

User avatar
NeK

28 Apr 2021, 05:39

andresteare wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:09
Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®

Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png

Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
5000cst at 25c seems pretty good. At 40c would be lower of course but probably more than 1500cst. And it is plastic safe. It doesn't explicitly state what the base oil and thickener is, but according to wikipedia, silicon grases usually have a silicone base oil with Silica thickener and this one also has some additional PTFE added in for good measure.

It seems that it will work very well. The problem that I find is that, silicon oil cannot be mixed with PAO. In other words it doesnt mix with the NyoGel 767A.

But who knows, it may work for our use case. Worth a try if it is cheap.

Update: what I think that will work well and without having to mix it with anything else, are other NyoGel products. Particularly the 774H or VH 774 (updated). In paper they seem to me that they will be excellent. They are Silica thickener with PAO base oil with the right viscosity. But in europe they are super expensive and I am not willing to shell out that much to try it.
Last edited by NeK on 28 Apr 2021, 06:01, edited 2 times in total.

andresteare

28 Apr 2021, 05:53

NeK wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 05:39
andresteare wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:09
Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®

Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png

Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
5000cst at 25c seems pretty good. At 40c would be lower of course but probably more than 1500cst. And it is plastic safe. It doesn't explicitly state what the base oil and thickener is, but according to wikipedia, silicon grases usually have a silicone base oil with Silica thickener and this one also has some additional PTFE added in for good measure.

It seems that it will work very well. The problem that I find is that, silicon oil cannot be mixed with PAO. In other words it doesnt mix with the NyoGel 767A.

But who knows, it may work for our use case. Worth a try if it is cheap.
I'm aware that PAO cannot be mixed with silicone, but maybe with a silicone based dampener I guess? Maybe mixed with some cheap really thick dielectric grease for dampening effects, pretty sure most of them are silicone based, I don't have SKCM switches to test

User avatar
NeK

28 Apr 2021, 06:00

My best bet for prelubed skcm switches is the NyoGel 774, if anyone can get a hold of it in a good price I bet it will be great. And no need to mix it with anything else. But until someone tries it, it will only remain a guess.

User avatar
NeK

28 Apr 2021, 06:07

micmil wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:56
This thread is quite possibly the most internet thing ever. For better and worse.
That's how we roll 8-)

headphone_jack

28 Apr 2021, 14:23

andresteare wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:09
Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®

Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png

Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
I've got a tube of this already for lubing stabs with. I'll give it a whirl on some switches later.

andresteare

28 Apr 2021, 15:41

headphone_jack wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 14:23
andresteare wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:09
Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®

Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png

Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
I've got a tube of this already for lubing stabs with. I'll give it a whirl on some switches later.
Great! If it binds try a mix with some thicker dielectric grease, or any sort of silicone based dampener

dc76

29 Apr 2021, 03:01

TAI Lubricants is the official US Small Volume Distributor for Nye Lubricants.
They have the 774VL and 774VH in stock, but don't have any 774.
Viscosity looks to be quite different, so I inquired about purchasing some 774. Fingers crossed I suppose.
Link is in the spoiler. I included the datasheets for reference, although they're from a UK distributor because TAI doesn't have them and Nye wants you to make an account to view the 774 sheets.

Going to try to find some 774 as I have a ZKB-2 with SKCL greens that would be a wonderful test for this.
Attachments
TDS_NyoGel_774VL.pdf
(74.57 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
TDS_NyoGel_774VH.pdf
(74.49 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
TDS_NyoGel_774.pdf
(74.78 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

User avatar
NeK

29 Apr 2021, 11:50

dc76 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 03:01
TAI Lubricants is the official US Small Volume Distributor for Nye Lubricants.
Just pointing this as a form of warning: be careful, 774VH is substantially heavy whereas 774VL is way too light.

NyoGel 774VH: 16830 cSt *0.86 = 14473,8 cP @ 40c
NyoGel 774 = 5070 cSt *0.86 = 4360,2 cP @ 40c
NyoGel 774VL = 903 cSt *0.86 = 776,58 cP @ 40c

For comparison, the notoriously heavy 767A has this viscosity:
NyoGel 767A: 28185 cSt *0.87 = 24520,95 cP @ 40c

The reason I mix the 767A with OKS 477, is to make the mixed lube viscosity lighter.

The viscosity of OKS 477 is: 1600 cSt *0.87 = 1392 cP @40c

I cannot calculate the exact viscosity rating that the mix has. However it cannot possibly be lower than the 1392 cP of OKS 477. Probably it would be somewhere between that and the 24520 cP of NG 767A. I guess, with a mix of 80 767A - 20 477. Using simple logic, it should be somewhere in the ballpark of 60% - 90% of the viscosity of 767A. But I may be wrong and it could be way less than that. I don't know how mixing the lubes changes the mixed viscosity. So anyone wishing to try and buy one of the 774 series should have this in mind.

This is only my guess, but anything below the viscosity of OKS 477 is out of the question without any second though. So I think that at least the NG 774 would be needed. However, it too may prove to be too light, so I can't know for sure which one to try first. My *guess* is that the 774 or the 774H would be the sweetspot lube.

UPDATE:

now that I think about it, the NG 774VH has about half (55%) of the viscosity of 767A. Maybe *that* one would be the best? Also there is another option the 774H which is in between the 774VH and 774. Maybe that would be the one. :?: :?:

In any case, I think it is clear by now, that the Nye company offers so many options and they are so specialized in lubes, that it probably has a product that can easily replace the OG lube.

inozenz

29 Apr 2021, 13:47

I live in Germany and went the extra mile to buy oks477 for 16€ 80ml and nygel767 31€ 50ml.

I plan on doing a test series, where I increase the amount of oks from 10%-90%, going in 10% steps to find the perfect amount for myself. If I reach a setisfying result, I'll repeat the test with 1% steps.

I got a chicony portable keyboard with white Alps switches from 1987. That board was so dirty, if you pressed a key it would stay down and not come back up. I cleaned it and had to remove the lube from the stem aswell, but the cleaning job really helped 10000 times. The sound is nice and you can press the keys fine but the binding is present. The typing experience is not satisfying enough to leave it that way.

The only issue is, that I have no spare time currently for any projects. This will probably happen around September/October.

I plan on documenting the process and results, this way everyone can see, if I do a good or bad job in lubing and hear the difference in viscosity.

I'll share my results once I got it done. Until then I keep on reading every information you guys hand out.

User avatar
NeK

29 Apr 2021, 15:34

inozenz wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 13:47
I live in Germany and went the extra mile to buy oks477 for 16€ 80ml and nygel767 31€ 50ml.

I plan on doing a test series, where I increase the amount of oks from 10%-90%, going in 10% steps to find the perfect amount for myself. If I reach a setisfying result, I'll repeat the test with 1% steps.

I got a chicony portable keyboard with white Alps switches from 1987. That board was so dirty, if you pressed a key it would stay down and not come back up. I cleaned it and had to remove the lube from the stem aswell, but the cleaning job really helped 10000 times. The sound is nice and you can press the keys fine but the binding is present. The typing experience is not satisfying enough to leave it that way.

The only issue is, that I have no spare time currently for any projects. This will probably happen around September/October.

I plan on documenting the process and results, this way everyone can see, if I do a good or bad job in lubing and hear the difference in viscosity.

I'll share my results once I got it done. Until then I keep on reading every information you guys hand out.
That's great, the more people test this mix its better for all. Just keep in mind that as far as I know all white skcm alps, have stems with the newer material which has lubricating properties by itself. For my white pine alps, OKS 477 alone transformed them to have very smooth and excellent feeling. So the 767A was not necessary for them. However I do still feel that a small part of 767A would make then perfectly smooth. So I would recommend to start with oks alone and after try with a little bit of 767A until you find the best mix. Maybe oks alone would be enough in this case.

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