Type II/IV Alps inspection assistance

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I've done some measuring on Types I, II and IV and come up with the following:

Alps recognition chart.png (21.03 KiB) Viewed 7108 times

Basically, simplified Alps Type II (called "[wiki]XM[/wiki]", for Xiang Min Co., Ltd) is completely identical on the outside to Type IV. Type II switches have a narrow tactile/click leaf, and Type IV switches have the same wide tactile/click leaf as Type I and complicated switches.

It would stand to reason that Type IV came before II, and that XM just wanted to use less metal.

What I'd really like, is for people with XM keyboards to open a switch (pick something you never use, like scroll lock) and check whether the tactile/click leaf is narrow and copper-coloured, or wide and made of steel. Photos wouldn't go amiss, especially as we presently have no internals photos, and I only have linear XM switches (so I can't photograph the one thing that makes them different!)

Basically I want to get a better understanding of these two switches. What I think has happened, is everyone has said "yep, four small tabs" and assumed Type II/XM, without realising that Type IV is completely identical from the outside.

Cheers

Daniel.

[002]

Awww, it was more fun when we all knew nothing about Alps. How are we gonna troll Ripster now?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm starting to suspect that Type II and Type IV are both made by Xiang Min, and that both are just knock-offs that Alps Electric had nothing to do with. In which case, we could rename them XM narrow leaf and XM wide leaf respectively. Since they both suck and they're both undesirable, they can both be "XM" for short.

Possibly Type IV is the older design before they decided to make a cheaper click leaf?

That just leaves figuring out whether Strongman and Fukka switches are knockoffs ("clones") or licenced products.

[maxrunner]

so basically one of my ortek mkc-84 uses the first option and the FX one uses the second type II/IV configuration....
edit:also, does the strongman have the same structure as the typeII/IV??because i have the dsi smk-85 and i they seem identical to the one's in the FX ortek but they feel completely different.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Type III, potentially made by Strongman, is externally identical to Type I and complicated switches.

Fukkas are confirmed to be real Alps switches – Fuhua (Forward Electronics) is what was Alps Taiwan. Same factory. So Alps Electric themselves presumably created the simplified design first, and Fuhua just continued making the same design.

[maxrunner]

Type II/IV are stiff right? when i press the keys not on the center it takes much force to press them. I wonder how easy is to get blue complicated switches, i'm considering changing the ortek mkc-84FX with other good switch.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

II (XM) and IV are stiffer, XM especially so, even if you hit them in the centre. Most of the keys on my Type IV board respond well enough to off-centre presses, although some of the number pad keys don't.

[maxrunner]

The FX ortek enter and bigger keys with the exception of the space bar sometimes almost get stuck when i press them off center....specially the enter key.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Bad stabilisers maybe? The top area of the big-ass enter key on my board is really stiff, not sure why. The other stabilised keys are all perfect. Type IV isn't a terrible switch, it's just for people with strong fingers ;-) XM (type II) is quite a bit worse.

[maxrunner]

edit:never mind.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not that I can tell personally. So far as I can tell, Types II and IV are externally completely identical. Likewise, original complicated, Type I/Fukka, and possibly Type III (possibly Strongman) are all externally identical. At a guess, if there's an "ALPS" logo on the upper shell, it won't be Strongman, but it could be Fukka, although by the time of the Tactile Pro 3, the ALPS logo was seemingly removed. These companies were very good at completely ripping off each other's designs, it seems, right down to the nearest mm. Type II and IV contact mechanisms aren't quite the same either, but unless both are made by XM (Xiang Min), then someone blatantly copied someone else with the design. Type III also has an identical contact mechanism to one of the other two, but the upper shell of a complicated switch. They're all very closely related.

Here's a lot of what you need to know (the page has since been deleted, it seems):

http://web.archive.org/web/200904290739 ... s_sw2.html

There are some photos of his on a different page showing very subtle differences in the upper shell, but I'm not sure what those refer to, and certainly not Types I/Fukka, II (XM) or IV. The page isn't machine translatable – comes back as hilarious nonsense.

Unless someone can translate that into English, it's not a whole lot of use to the western world …

[Soarer]

I like XMs! I don't have any problem with them, even with off-centre presses. BUT I'm well aware that with a switch as cheap as they are, there will be a lot of variability between production runs/years/whatever, and QC might not be the best. They actually feel fairly light to me, albeit with a massive tactile 'hump' that's quite high in the travel (that's quite unique and what I like about them, but I don't deny it could be implemented better).

[002]

Looks like there is some good information here too, as well as a bunch of pictures.
Site is in Chinese by the looks of it.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, that officially ends the concept of Types I–IV. Forever.

The "XM"/Type II ends up being a large number of different types (T1–9). OA1 seems to be the closest to "Type IV".

If Matias is reading, there is definitely glory for whoever translates all of that and puts it on the wiki.

[maxrunner]

interesting. Anyway is there a way of getting blue complicated switches? i'm thinking of switching the fx switches to something else, and i thought i might try blue alps first.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

From buying a keyboard with them in, obviously. They haven't been sold since no later than the early 90s, but I imagine production stopped way before that, as blue complicated was replaced with white complicated (and I've never seen conclusive information showing how they differ besides colour).

[maxrunner]

Thanks. I think i need to get one keyboard with those then.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm thinking — maybe what we need is a colour chart. For each slider colour, one mini picture of each form factor (classic shell, classic shell + ALPS logo, XM shell) along with known switches for that colour + form factor. For example, are there any known simplified/clone switches in the same overcast sky blue as complicated blue switches, or are all blue clones all vivid blue?

However, at the moment, I'm not sure what to do about 002's discovery. Certainly means that we need a lot more switch opening to be sure what anyone's got … Not that I'm sure we'd ever really find out anything much at the end of the day: I sense that it's now physically impossible to find out who made all nine varieties of the "mantis" switches, since they're probably not all from Xiang Min. I also don't believe for a second that enough people have enough of each type to get any realistic assessment of keyfeel for each of the types discovered.

For the record, is there any evidence to suggest that Alps Electric ever made any other simplified variety besides Type I? Is everything besides complicated and Type I simplified, guaranteed to be a clone?

I've also noticed something else. There are really subtle differences in slider shape. Type IV switches have the same shape slider as vintage Alps with sharp corners in the surface cross section, but modern XM switches have a more rounded shape. Annoyingly, the page 002 found doesn't show the top-down of all the sliders, and it's hard to tell how much variation there is from the angle and focus of all the images on that page.

I think my most recent revision to the [wiki]Alps_CM[/wiki] page is fair. I'm still a little hesitant on whether all the details of simplified real Alps should go on the Alps CM page (after all, it's an Alps design) or the Fukka page. Did the term "CM" refer to Alps's simplified range as well, as if not, it would be due its own page anyway.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

One other thing: the Fuhua Alps article, would it be fair to say that it should be removed from the Alps clones category? Since it's not a clone. Of course, then it would not appear in any Alps category at all — where should it go? Does it actually need its own page? Should the simplified Alps details be moved from that page onto Alps CM, or onto the Fuhua Alps page, renamed to Alps simplified?

[maxrunner]

Great info Daniel. Regarding your question not really sure either....but then i'm just a rookie in the alps switch thing.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I think we all are ........

[laffindude]

That page is pretty hard to translate, though it is the best summary of alps anywhere. It uses shape of Chinese characters to describe the contact leaf and the names are excessively long and descriptive.
for example:
T5=半同形螳螂腳(小1點)(單條)
half "tong 同" shape mantis foot (small 1 dot)(single strip).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The mantis one is because the copper click leaf resembles a mantis when inverted. I like it, it's a good term to use. I just don't know that it's a meaningful category at the moment.

[laffindude]

That I know. The first part usually refers to the shape of the contact leaf. The first parenthesis is the contact points on the 2nd leaf. Last parenthesis refers to the leaflet numbers on the contact points on the contact leaf.

His categories are Alps (not sure what the bigfoot switch is, he calls it alps grooved), mantis foot, non-mantis foot, others, and guillotine

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I would rather see the switches defined by manufacturer and product range, but this is probably impossible now.

And confusing — 486 has hash-style switches branded "Aruz", but the Chinese page depicts a similar if not identical "JL"-branded switch. Even if we saw the internals of the Aruz, and they matched the JL, one of those could still be a clone of the other! No way of knowing now.

We can state with relative certainty which switches come from Xiang Min: those in the Tactile Pro 3, as they're believed by Matias to be sourced from Xiang Min themselves (and he was able to say what "XM" means — previously I'd never seen an explanation for that name). Alps-type switches in Ducky keyboards are called "XM", but is that simply because they resemble XM switches? Has anyone opened them all and checked, or does everyone just assume four small tabs == XM? Did Xiang Min make all nine mantis switches, or just some of them? Did Xiang Min make any non-mantis four-tab switches? I doubt the latter to be true.

Type III may be Strongman, but it's not proven.

It's a bit like classifying animal life: biologists keep changing the classifications over time as they change their mind on what relates to what.

I'd be happier using the Chinese classifications if I had a decent human translation of the page. At least that page sheds some light on what switches were really used on various well-known boards, except that boards change switch over time …

[laffindude]

Alps is confusing enough as it is. With all the different "highly similar" switches, I can totally see why he just categorize by feature. It may not be possible to sort by manufacturer since not all switches have known manufacturer. I dunno.

@ Ducky's XM, and I believe they're officially called the XM by Ducky themselves. I think alps.tw posted internal pix of it, but can't find it right now. He also posted those blue XM switch in the WK750 (or at least ripster called them XM, I think some product pages listed them as XM as well). http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/52368 The big guide hasn't been updated in awhile. Though, not like there is Alps innovation happening left and right ;o

[Soarer]

Filco put XM on the box of the zero... but, duck related all the same

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yeah, forgot about the Zero.

The box for http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/52368 clearly states APC switches. I've seen that before. No idea what the relationship is with XM – the switches look the same.

So, we'd start out with the following sets of wiki articles:

• Original: Alps CM¹
• Fuhua Alps (not a clone switch)
• XM, for keyboards with known XM switches (Zero XM, Ducky Alps, TP3)
• Other recognised brands (e.g. Mitsumi Alps clone, KPT if they're a real company and it's pin-compatible etc)
• Other very specific switches (i.e. the Aruz/JL/hash)

This is pretty much already done, except that some pages link to XM when they maybe shouldn't. The SIIG MiniTouch for example is widely believed to have used XM switches, but where does that information come from?

We need somewhere to put pictures of Type III (Strongman?), Type IV, and all the other unknowns that may be Strongman, may be Alps-Gone-Wrong, may be APC or KPT or XM but nobody knows. We can't use "Type II", "Type III" and "Type IV" any more as there are too many variations in too many combinations, but Type III and IV already have their own pages, when they probably shouldn't.

We could just literally have an "Unknown Alps clones" page with everything else on, and let people draw their own conclusions.

Any better suggestions? Yay or nay?

¹Should Alps simplified be merged in with Fuhua?

[laffindude]

I like the idea of a megapage with Alps compatible switches. (Real alps and Fuhua should get their separate page of course). That is pretty much what Alps.tw did, except he left in the Alps with the compatibles.

@APC. The external casing looks identical. However, the contact leaf is different. The APC one is "hui" 回 shaped. IIRC the Ducky one uses leaf similar to the half "tong" 同 shaped leaf.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What are "real" Alps? Alps made two types of switch that I'm aware of, complicated and simplified. As I understand it, Forward Electronics (a Taiwanese company) took over the Alps Taiwan factory after Alps had moved over to making simplified switches, so their switches as far as I'm concerned are real Alps, just made under new management effectively. In order to justify two whole pages for the Type I Simplified switch (Alps simplified, Fukka, whatever you want to call it), we would need to explain what Forward Electronics did to alter the switch in a way that makes it significantly different. Otherwise, I'd stick to one page for Alps CM (complicated), and one page for Alps simplified/Fukka.

For one thing, people say "Fukka" when they mean "simplified Alps that was made by either Alps or Forward Electronics and we don't know which", the same as "XM" seems to mean "clone switch with four corner tabs".

Just trying to avoid a whole load of duplicate content for what is basically one switch :)

WRT APC, I'll create a page for those tonight, though at the moment it will just be an empty page :)