Left-handed tenkeyless idea

[jacobolus]

Daniel: I don’t understand why you’re so curmudgeonly here.. it’s like you’re actively annoyed that people are enthusiastic and want to help. Here’s my abbreviated summary:

“Hey guys, I have this awesome idea that I put a bunch of thought and effort into. It’s my dream! But it’s never going to happen.”
“Ooh, that sounds neat! I’m working on something that might be relevant to your vision. What do you think?”
“No, your version sucks.”
“How about this existing keyboard that’s pretty similar to your vision?”
“Nah, that one sucks too. It has a couple little details wrong.”
“Okay, well how much are you willing to do to make your dream a reality? Maybe we could help you with it.”
“Nothing. It’s impossible.”
“Well, can you at least explain all the details you care about, so we can stop suggesting solutions you’ll be unhappy about?”
“No. Go away and stop bothering me.”

Or am I misinterpreting something here?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Let me get this straight — you think that it will ever become a commercial product? Of course it won't.

I am not sure why anyone wants to suggest something different — if I wanted something different, I'd have drawn and described something different, wouldn't I?

I will never understand the need that people have to assume that you cannot possibly want what you described, and must naturally want something different. Great, so people have found non-backlit versions; I made it very clear that I wanted backlit, with a picture depicting the exact colour arrangement where I even went the trouble to add the glow effect of the LEDs.

If you're so desperate to be helpful, consider all the things I've asked for (including explicit requests and instructions) from people who consistently fail to help. That dude where I really wanted to see his controller chip. Details of various other switches where I need specific shots to confirm operation. Tons of stuff missing from the wiki (I've pretty much given up). Still no photo of the switchplate from the tactile green Alps. The list of things I've asked for that people fail to deliver is endless.

But you expect me to be grateful for people suggesting I buy a product that isn't what I described? If people want to be helpful, they might want to actually try doing what they're told for a change.

I already made it clear that I don't have enough enthusiasm left to build my own keyboard; I never was adept at making things, but I excel at destroying them. I separated out the two halves of my Necam 96 keyboard by destroying the punch-down connector at one end of the cable, instead of releasing the conventional ribbon connector at the other end. I have no idea why I made such a stupid mistake.

[jacobolus]

It’s unlikely to become a commercial product, but that doesn’t mean that a single copy won’t ever exist.

I have a lot of stuff to still add to the wiki, sorry it takes a while. (Lots else to do.) I’ll try to get you a photo of that tactile green Alps switch disassembled within a couple days, and some force curve measurements of it as soon as I can make it down to HaaTa’s. (It’s a 2-hour train ride each way, so that might take 2–4 weeks.)

I don’t expect you to be grateful for anything. I was just hoping you’d flesh out your vision and clarify some points. (But you don’t have to.) It’s not obvious so far what design attributes are essential to your vision vs. which ones are loose preferences, and there are a lot of other features left unspecified (such as case design/material, programmability, keycap material, etc. which I can’t assume you’re indifferent about).

You mentioned MX RGB switches, and then you mentioned green Alps. Are you happy with either? Or is one or the other preferred? (MX switches are definitely easier to find backlight-friendly keycaps for, but I think it should be possible either way.)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I wrote "using Cherry RGB switches because I'm too lazy to simulate rubbish backlighting in Photoshop" — it was a joke, because obviously in reality you don't get a backlit keyboard to look anywhere near that uniformly lit.

I just want it to look like the picture. If I wanted an Fn layer I'd have added one to the picture. (I considered it, but Fn means losing a useful key.)

You're way overthinking it. It's just a TKL with the sides swapped, and the vintage two-tone look transferred to the backlighting. It doesn't exist and never will. There is no great vision.

[jacobolus]

it was a joke,

So green Alps it is.

I just want it to look like the picture. If I wanted an Fn layer I'd have added one to the picture. (I considered it, but Fn means losing a useful key.)

Okay. It’s possible to do without losing a key by shortening the right shift, but nevermind. Standard TKL with the sides swapped it is.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What is wrong with you?

If I give you the answers, do I get some sort of reward for obedience?

• No desire for programmability of any kind — no-one here was the least bit interested in my idea of having an OS- and software-independent keyboard programming protocol, as you're all obsessed with programming incapable firmware with a C compiler, which is commercial suicide and desperately pathetic for the 21st century, and I have no interest in some proprietary garbage
• No desire for Fn layer — it won't get around the problem of high integrity processes blocking global keybindings — the whole point of TKL is to get rid of the hassle of having to find Fn any time I want to just smack a key, like F5
• I have no idea what switch I want — I haven't tried MX Black or SKCL Green yet, and for all I know I might want to go back to MX Clear
• It would be non-click — if I wanted it to click I would probably¹ use Matias switches, not linear Alps (Matias, of course, still failing to sell linear switches, and they're a nightmare to reassemble)
• Keycap profile is hopeless — whatever keycaps you want, won't match — I specifically asked in Marketplace for Cherry profile Windows key doubleshots to match some coloured mods I got from EK, but got ignored; they just need to be consistent with each other
• Typeface — dunno, I like the Poker II's typeface, but probably something more mundane as I'm going for a more mature look (hence blue+white instead of blue+green)
• As noted, I really want black-dyed anodised aluminium, but it's impossible unless you can find a way to cover it in a durable, electrically insulating surface material that has no negative effect on the satin finish of the anodising, otherwise I'll be getting shocks off it; so basically just regular rubbish boring old black plastic
• Feet and angle, no idea, anything — don't particularly care — like I said, you're way, way overthinking this

¹ I've back-ordered a Tactile Pro for PC as I promised everyone I'd buy one, even though really I want a Mini Tactile Pro for PC to save space (even if the layout sucks, since I only plan to test it for a few minutes and then dump it in a pile somewhere), but such a thing naturally doesn't exist.

[jacobolus]

Thanks! Sounds like a great keyboard.

As for what’s wrong with me: I just love hearing people’s ideas, and I think it’s worth getting all the details out. So thanks for humoring me.

[neverlast74]

Just a question out of know knowing... no offense.... from a guy who is left handed. What is the idea of a left handed keyboard? I am fine with the "right handed" layout. Thanks.....

[Daniel Beardsmore]

This is the original layout:

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My mouse was actually hitting my laptop due to lack of space.

I replaced the Filco with a Poker II. 60% keyboards are so absurdly terrible, I end up just grabbing the mouse instead of trying to use the impossible-to-use combinations for ctrl + shift + arrows, home, end, etc. However, the mouse is now really close and much easier and quicker to switch to and from. A regular TKL would push the mouse further away again, and I like having it directly in reach.

A full left-handed keyboard won't fit, but a left-handed TKL will just about fit into the gap to the right of the phone. (I don't really have a dially phone but it was easier to draw than a digital handset.)

I don't really want to give up the convenience of the size of a 60%, so if I am going to replace it, the replacement needs to be good.

[Muirium]

Indeed. Left handed people have an unusual advantage with full size keyboards. You guys can mouse with your dominant hand right next to the main (60%) block without having to reach over a load of other keys first. I mouse left handed just so that I can enjoy this same trick when I use full size boards, which are not my preference, but I do have some damn good ones!

For right handed mousing, we need a "left handed" board. All thanks to historical design decisions by IBM and the like, before a mouse was considered essential computing hardware.

[scottc]

It would be convenient, but using the mouse with your left hand isn't as easy as it sounds. I know of very few comfortable mice that I can use with both my left and right hand. All of the nice mice I own are oversized, shaped "gaming" mice. I can't use the standard crap that usually comes with computers (and yes, that includes the Apple Tragic Mouse) without getting horrible claw-hand. If I'm mousing left-handed, I usually keep a touchpad on the left-hand side since they're usually good for both hands.

[Muirium]

One man's tragedy is another man's… uh… magic! Love me that mouse. So much better for finger grip than the bulky Mighty Mouse before it.

Symmetry for the win!

[scottc]

I just can't use it! It might be due to having bear-hands and sausage-fingers, but it's just too small and dainty for me!

[Findecanor]

Daniel, have you tried a programmable keypad to the left of the Poker II ?

[jacobolus]

Daniel, have you tried a programmable keypad to the left of the Poker II ?

It sounds like access to F keys is also important to him.

[Findecanor]

You could fit F1..F12, four arrow keys and four nav keys into a 4×5 matrix if you would be willing to alter the layout a little bit.
Many keypads have six rows, though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Daniel, have you tried a programmable keypad to the left of the Poker II ?

I would have to superglue it to the Poker so that I could pick up and move both at the same time.

Or maybe an actual nut-and-bolt mod …

[kbdfr]

If your problem is the lack of room on either side for a mouse,
sure you should give a RollerMouse a try.
I just don't know how I managed to not have one all these years…

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It won't be at the top of my list for things to do once I get my teleporter working.

[wcass]

If you want more space to the right but also more keys than the Poker, I have two suggestions. I made this first keyboard after reading a DIY SSK thread (yours I think). It has been my daily driver at home for several years now.

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Have you considered a 65%? After I finish my XTant project, I plan on making a custom Model F with the layout below. None of the caps are special order except for the Fn keys (but Unicomp has made a bunch of these keys for me in the past). The space is a blank right shift, and the right Shift and right Ctrl are both 1.75 stepped keys (the step to help locate the arrow cluster by touch). Fn + right shift = Caps Lock; Fn + delete = insert; Fn + P = Print Screen. As it is based on IBM/Unicomp design, you would be free to use ANSI or ISO Enter and left shift. Except for that backspace, the layout is very similar to many laptops.

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[Daniel Beardsmore]

The DIY SSK thread certainly wasn't mine. Yours looks like it would be a bit of a stretch to reach the arrow keys.

I did specifically include a function key row, so that I can hit those easily. A "65%" with a function key row isn't impossible. I did see a keyboard the other day with diddy keycaps over regular MX switches—like people used Alps SKCL Compact and SKFL Compact for—which would be interesting for a function key row.

[scottc]

wcass, I'm really impressed with that board! I'd be tempted to make one of my own if I had the skills...

Daniel, have you seen the MX Mini PCBs that Tinnie is selling? If a 65% with the function row would be enough for you, then you should look it up. It should look something like this:



Tinnie's version also supports ISO and a few different layouts.

[Muirium]

What about all of Daniel's mods? I'm like him in that I use every one of them, either side of the space bar. On a custom, you expect to be able to build precisely what you want. While with an adaptation, like Wcass's 122 key chop, you have to compromise with what's already there. Winkeyless boards aren't my favourite on the Mac, either. Control, Option and Command all have their place. Dancing round to compensate for missing mods is more hassle than adapting to layers for the navigation keys, to me at least.

[scottc]

Like I said, there are a few different possible layouts on the PCB. I'm not sure if that includes changing the mods, but at least on the face-u boards that Tinnie is also selling, there are a load of ways that you can configure them.

[Muirium]

I suspect there's less choice on the MX mini. Those arrow keys force a world of compromises on the rest of the board, as with everything between 60% and TKL in size. You're stuck looking at (hard to find) non-standard space bars to take the slack. Or rather the opposite!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

As I said before, I don't understand the human obsession to suggest everything other than what someone actually asked for. I wasn't asking for anything to begin with. It's like people assume I put no thought into anything and that I can't possibly know what I want.

[Muirium]

We're just enthusiasts, and we're bouncing around ideas in the theme of what you originally described. As you've said, what you really want is some ready made, factory assembled, lefty TKL with the lighting and attributes you originally stated. Nothing we can do about that.